Is Belief (or Lack Thereof) a Choice?

[LuisDantas]

Take #2
Those 2 bold ones for good and honesty are beliefs without evidence. That is all.

In all honesty, there is ample evidence if you only go through the trouble of examining what happens in theistic beliefs.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

In all honesty, there is ample evidence if you only go through the trouble of examining what happens in theistic beliefs.

The problem is that I can't observe it with any of the 5 senses, there are no instruments to measure it and there are no natural science theories for it.
So you are conflating 2 kinds of evidence at best.

 

[shunyadragon]

Well, believe and not believe are in practice culture and processes in brains, so I doubt you can avoid those 2.

It is not a matter of avoiding sociology and psychology. It is a mater of addressing the questions of belief and non-belief in terms of sociology and psychology like I did. The question of tribal human attachment to the Sense of Belonging and Identity is an issue of psychology and sociology issues. Because of this by far most people give up any potential of free will choices concerning what they believe and not believe. The problem is very apparent and tragic in their relationship with those who believe differently and the knowledge science and history.

In this perspective I believe my posts indeed address these issues and will fo more in the future.

 

[shunyadragon]

In all honesty, there is ample evidence if you only go through the trouble of examining what happens in theistic beliefs.

Unless I misunderstand this response is flawed concerning what is the evidence concerning the question of Theistic beliefs. Most Theistic beliefs are based on ancient tribal scriptures of ancient cultures without provenance, objective evidence nor significant subjective evidence beyond the testimony of those that profess the beliefs in their writing thousands of years ago.

The key maybe understanding what 'the trouble is the evidence examining what happens in theist beliefs.'

 

[shunyadragon]

When we say, "I believe (in) X" all we are saying is that we are accepting that our understanding of "X" as correct (whether it is or not). So there is no reason why we couldn't choose to reverse that option at any time. And in fact, we all do so on occasion. We choose to no longer believe that our understanding of "X" was correct, and we adopt a new, changed understanding of it.

This is maybe true for every day things and odds and ends what we believe is true that changes with information, but not in terms of religious belief and non-belief. People in general do not frequently change their minds. More than 95%+ people believe in the religion they were raised in or their peer group. To a limited extent people my 'church shop' in the USA, but they do not wander far from home. Many may not attend church, or appear indifferent to their belief, but still identify with their religion, In Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and Judaism very very few change the religious belief they were raised in.

This does not negate that some people make a radical change to a very different religion.

 

[PureX]

This is maybe true for every day things and odds and ends what we believe is true that changes with information, but not in terms of religious belief and non-belief. People in general do not frequently change their minds. More than 95%+ people believe in the religion they were raised in or their peer group. To a limited extent people my 'church shop' in the USA, but they do not wander far from home. Many may not attend church, or appear indifferent to their belief, but still identify with their religion, In Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and Judaism very very few change the religious belief they were raised in.

This does not negate that some people make a radical change to a very different religion.

You ignored the rest of my post which explained that.

The point is that people not only can and do change what they believe to be true, but they can and do change their methods of determining what is true and what isn't. The fact that this is often difficult and upsetting means that most will avoid it until it's unavoidable. But that doesn't negate the fact that it is possible, and it does happen.

 

[shunyadragon]

You ignored the rest of my post which explained that.

The point is that people not only can and do change what they believe to be true, but they can and do change their methods of determining what is true and what isn't. The fact that this is often difficult and upsetting means that most will avoid it until it's unavoidable. But that doesn't negate the fact that it is possible, and it does happen.

I responded to the heart of the post. They can(?) Your assertion using X;s is very very subjective assessment without evidence as I presented. Simply acknowledging the possibility of changing ones mind concerning religion is a given but not an adequate explanation considering the facts of human nature

Considering it a possibility is too subjective, and does not explain why change of choice is so rare. . The bottom line is that 95%+ of the people DO NOT change their beliefs in terms of their religion whether they can or cannot change. Most that do change do so within the paradyme of their culture as in changing form one church to another,

The interesting question is why cling ro ancient cultural paradymes with ancient world views riff with superstition and mythology that are irrational and not logical in terms of science and history. The other question open to discussion is why those few who make a radical range do so

 

[PureX]

Considering it a possibility is too subjective, and does not explain why change of choice is so rare.

It's not all that rare. And the why isn't what the thread was asking. The fact is we can change, and we do change. That we are often frightened of changing, or lazy, or indifferent to the truthfulness of what we choose to believe to be true, is a different issue.

The bottom line is that 95%+ of the people DO NOT change their beliefs in terms of their religion whether they can or cannot change.

There is no way of determining that number. And there are many serveys that would wildly disagree with it.

Most that do change do so within the paradyme of their culture as in changing form one church to another.

Most remain theists. Many reject religion (not change religions). This does not support the contention that I think you're trying to defend.

The interesting question is why cling ro ancient cultural paradymes with ancient world views riff with superstition and mythology that are irrational and not logical in terms of science and history.

The answer is because we are human beings, and so we are genetically programmed to be theists. That's not a great mystery.

The other question open to discussion is why those few who make a radical range do so

We must assume that the change represents a "better solution" for them than the one they had been given.

 

[shunyadragon]

It's not all that rare. And the why isn't what the thread was asking. The fact is we can change, and we do change. That we are often frightened of changing, or lazy, or indifferent to the truthfulness of what we choose to believe to be true, is a different issue.

It is rare, your claim of we can and do is not relevant. The fact that people rarely change is fact that by far the overwhelming beliefs of most people is religion of their family and culture.or heritage

There is no way of determining that number. And there are many serveys that would wildly disagree with it.

Please cite other surveys.

Most remain theists. Many reject religion (not change religions). This does not support the contention that I think you're trying to defend.

By far most Christians remain Christians. Muslimes remain Muslims, and Jews remain Jews.

The answer is because we are human beings, and so we are genetically programmed to be theists. That's not a great mystery.

I disagree on the genetics argument. It is our family, culture, and heritage that overwhelmingly determines our belief.

We must assume that the change represents a "better solution" for them than the one they had been given.

Actually, we cannot assume that. Everyone who converts believes it is a better solution like the sky is Carolina Blue on a clear day on the 4th of July. That is only valid for one who changes their religion

Sources to follow

 

[Willamena]

Sometimes arguments against a belief or evidence against a belief can lead to doubt, truth can be seen in both sides and then choice can come into the question.

Belief can happen on two sides. Yes.

That's why we have the world that we do.

 

[paarsurrey]

Belief can happen on two sides. Yes.

That's why we have the world that we do.

I don't get one exactly, please elaborate for me, right?

Regards

 

[Willamena]

I don't get one exactly, please elaborate for me, right?

Regards

I don't understand your question.

 

[Link]

It's a choice to be honest to yourself or not. And it's a choice to seek the truth or settle for what you don't know.

 

[Soandso]

Speaking for myself, going from theist to atheist wasn't a choice. I simply, over time, found evidence for god as a literal being less and less compelling. Eventually there was no evidence I found compelling left. The closest label that I thought fit my current beliefs was atheist, so if a choice was made, it was in adopting that label. I'm not attached to the label, or to my beliefs, so we will see what the future holds or what new things I learn further down the line