Is behaving for the Afterlife amoral?

[Wandered Off]

If people base behavioral decisions on trying to get into a Heaven or out of a Hell, does that make them amoral?

We often use positive and negative consequences to teach children and to encourage desirable behavior or discourage undesirable behavior. We do so because children are not yet capable of making moral decisions on their own. At their stage of development, appeals to pure self interest work.

However, if rewards or punishments are motivators for adults, it could indicate amorality. For example, if my motivation for not robbing a bank were that I might get thrown in prison, perhaps I lack the moral stance against stealing. My choice is based on self interest irrespective of "right" or "wrong". In that sense, punishments are really for those who lack the morality to act as they should otherwise, i.e., for the amoral.

For those who believe in Heaven and Hell, should Heaven or Hell be relevant in your moral decisions?

 

[Faint]

If people base behavioral decisions on trying to get into a Heaven or out of a Hell, does that make them amoral?

We often use positive and negative consequences to teach children and to encourage desirable behavior or discourage undesirable behavior. We do so because children are not yet capable of making moral decisions on their own. At their stage of development, appeals to pure self interest work.

However, if rewards or punishments are motivators for adults, it could indicate amorality. For example, if my motivation for not robbing a bank were that I might get thrown in prison, perhaps I lack the moral stance against stealing. My choice is based on self interest irrespective of "right" or "wrong". In that sense, punishments are really for those who lack the morality to act as they should otherwise, i.e., for the amoral.

For those who believe in Heaven and Hell, should Heaven or Hell be relevant in your moral decisions?

I think that while motivation is an important element to consider when trying to determine whether someone's actions are morally sound, selfish interests do not necessarily make that person amoral. All of us are selfish when you really break it down to the prime mover and the "why" humans do anything. People who believe in heaven or hell may do good (or bad) things in order to be rewarded for them (or to avoid punishment). It's the pleasure/pain arguement...which I believe is valid (and the basis of hedonism).

All it means is they are not as altruistic as some might think they are. Even martyrs ultimately do what they do for themselves.

 

[Wandered Off]

...selfish interests do not necessarily make that person amoral.

Well, I think of morality as acting based on some standard what is right without respect to self interest. Self interest and right can be aligned but are not really the same, but I may be oversimplifying.

People who believe in heaven or hell may do good (or bad) things in order to be rewarded for them (or to avoid punishment). It's the pleasure/pain arguement...which I believe is valid (and the basis of hedonism).

Exactly. This would be acting out of self interest and not a moral standard of "right" or "wrong", which is what raises my question.

By the way, I don't mean to suggest that self interest is a bad thing per se, only that it is not a sole basis for moral action.

Even martyrs ultimately do what they do for themselves.

As you rightly point out, most of our actions are motivated by a complex mixture of morality and self interest.

 

[michel]

If people base behavioral decisions on trying to get into a Heaven or out of a Hell, does that make them amoral?

We often use positive and negative consequences to teach children and to encourage desirable behavior or discourage undesirable behavior. We do so because children are not yet capable of making moral decisions on their own. At their stage of development, appeals to pure self interest work.

However, if rewards or punishments are motivators for adults, it could indicate amorality. For example, if my motivation for not robbing a bank were that I might get thrown in prison, perhaps I lack the moral stance against stealing. My choice is based on self interest irrespective of "right" or "wrong". In that sense, punishments are really for those who lack the morality to act as they should otherwise, i.e., for the amoral.

For those who believe in Heaven and Hell, should Heaven or Hell be relevant in your moral decisions?

I'm not at all sure about 'amoral'...I think it tends towards 'immoral' personally; if acting decentlly is done for personal gain, then it is worthless, IMO.

 

[Sunstone]

"Amoral" is "without morality". A person who's morality is based on self interest still has a morality, albeit not a morality based on altruism.

 

[Gentoo]

I think people should be nice for the sake of being nice. Whether you get into Heaven for doing so, or Hell for not doing so should be an after-thought. Just my thoughts

 

[Booko]

If people base behavioral decisions on trying to get into a Heaven or out of a Hell, does that make them amoral?

No, I don't think so.

It seems to be a useful "first step" on the road to Enlightenment.

The problem comes in if we don't take the next step and stay stuck in that "toddler's view" of spirituality.

 

[Wandered Off]

"Amoral" is "without morality". A person who's morality is based on self interest still has a morality, albeit not a morality based on altruism.

Hmm... So in this view, is amorality even possible for a rational person? Do you see morality and motivation as the same?

 

[Sunstone]

Hmm... So in this view, is amorality even possible for a rational person?

I suppose that all of us are amoral about somethings. That is, there are things that we don't have any kind of moral position on. For instance: What is your opinion of the moral value of carrots? Chances are you don't have an opinion of the moral value of carrots. Hence, on that issue, you are amoral.

Do you see morality and motivation as the same?

No. Although I am aware that some people base their moral judgements in part or whole on their perception of their own or other's motives, I try not to.

 

[Wandered Off]

What is your opinion of the moral value of carrots? Chances are you don't have an opinion of the moral value of carrots. Hence, on that issue, you are amoral.

Ah, I see. I usually think of morality with respect to actions rather than objects. To me, eating carrots might be amoral if you did so only because you liked them or only because they were healthy for you. If those are your sole considerations, you are not taking a moral stand, which is an analogy to the Heaven/Hell amorality, IMO.

Eating carrots could be a moral position is if you are pregnant or going to donate some tissue and would want health benefits to transfer someone else. Well, I guess if you wanted to stay healthy to benefit your family, then it could be a moral stand also. Or maybe if you wanted to support carrot growers... OK, it can get pretty complex in a hurry if we let it.

 

[Popeyesays]

I think it's moral bankruptcy to worship for hope of reward or fear of punishment.

"WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise. Thus and thus alone should be the worship which befitteth the one True God. Shouldst thou worship Him because of fear, this would be unseemly in the sanctified Court of His presence, and could not be regarded as an act by thee dedicated to the Oneness of His Being. Or if thy 78 gaze should be on paradise, and thou shouldst worship Him while cherishing such a hope, thou wouldst make God's creation a partner with Him, notwithstanding the fact that paradise is desired by men.
Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.
Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God's good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God's favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom."
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 77)

Regards,
Scott

 

[!Fluffy!]

If people base behavioral decisions on trying to get into a Heaven or out of a Hell, does that make them amoral?

We often use positive and negative consequences to teach children and to encourage desirable behavior or discourage undesirable behavior. We do so because children are not yet capable of making moral decisions on their own. At their stage of development, appeals to pure self interest work.

However, if rewards or punishments are motivators for adults, it could indicate amorality. For example, if my motivation for not robbing a bank were that I might get thrown in prison, perhaps I lack the moral stance against stealing. My choice is based on self interest irrespective of "right" or "wrong". In that sense, punishments are really for those who lack the morality to act as they should otherwise, i.e., for the amoral.

For those who believe in Heaven and Hell, should Heaven or Hell be relevant in your moral decisions?

Your title "is behaving for the afterlife amoral?" is what I will reply to, as that is what got my attention in the first place and I had already formed an argument when I clicked on the thread...:angel2:

Because IMO our morality should definitely include in its perspective the "eternal", as much as our daily decision making process includes thinking about "tomorrow". Mature adults temper impulsive acts by thinking beyond the moment, and considering the future, and how our acts may affect others.

If I am making a decision about something important, I invariably think of tomorrow and its consequences.

The further ahead one extends thoughts of tomorrow, the better. If we who believe in an afterlife have adopted an eternal perspective, our actions today become of much greater consequence. Not only will we consider the idea that what we are doing today is never secret, as our thoughts are never secret... we will consider the idea that we ourselves will be witness to what we have done, or thought, or said - in the future review of those actions, and we will be in the presence of a host of witnesses, and that every action will be viewed in respect to its impact not only on ourselves but on every person with whom we have come in contact, as well as future generations.

It gives one pause to consider, we are even now on full display as far as Almighty God and the heavenly host is concerned.

So in answer to your question, it's the opposite of amoral.

 

[Wandered Off]

Mature adults temper impulsive acts by thinking beyond the moment, and considering the future, and how our acts may affect others.

Exactly! In that case, you're not focused on the amoral self-interest of the afterlife consequences for you. My clunky title didn't capture that I was really focusing on the self-interest aspect. :sorry1: