1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is Baptism necessary?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Corban, Oct 16, 2004.

  1. Corban

    Corban Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2004
    Messages:
    159
    Ratings:
    +9
    First i realize this question has been asked in the same faith debates, but i hate how it takes for ever for a post to show up there, so i bring it here. Is baptism necessary?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    4,634
    Ratings:
    +223
    I know the Christians believe it is. I don't think it is. It is an outer ceremony. I believe we can do an inner baptism.
     
  3. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    I don't think so, and that's not just because I'm not Christian. Even when I was Christian, i still thought it was sorta frivolous. I mean, if God doesn't want a baby to have "original sin" he could take it away himself. Why does God need a fancy little ritual?
     
  4. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    70,530
    Ratings:
    +28,583
    Religion:
    Erotic Dancing Girls
    Now there you go again, Ceridwen, applying your cold scientific eye to religion! "Why does God need a fancy little ritual", indeed! Every religion is chock full of "fancy little rituals". They're all over the place. There's not a religion without them. If there is a God, he must love rituals, because he made us a species that propagates them at an astounding rate.
     
  5. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    15,370
    Ratings:
    +1,653
    while I'm not a christian I was for a while. Baptism is an entry ritual for the religion and thus a way of cementing the commitment. Ritual bathing is a fairly common practice in many religions, mostly as a purification thing. Which makes sence as it cleans you physically why not spiritualy as well?

    So while I can see the logic behind the act I don't personally beleive in baptism.

    Of cource this thead buggers the question of how much is enough? Some christians believe that 'a little drop will do ya'." while others are into "a full dunking".

    wa:do
     
  6. logos

    logos Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2004
    Messages:
    63
    Ratings:
    +4
    There is an inherent difficulty in answering a lot of these questions, because they are questions directed to a Christian context but taken out of that context as stand alone. For example, when you talk about the necessity of Baptism you also get into the concept of Original Sin. However, you cannot talk about Original Sin without discussing Adam and Eve, the Creation narrative, and the Fall. Of course, you cannot discuss those without reference to the bible and you cannot reference the bible without mentioning God.

    The problem is that all of these things you deal with as stand alone issues with no interrelation. Therefore, I am led back to my original difficulty.

    As to the answer itself, I am going to take a Scott approach:

    1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5

    I. WHAT IS THIS SACRAMENT CALLED?
    1214 This sacrament is called Baptism, after the central rite by which it is carried out: to baptize (Greek baptizein) means to "plunge" or "immerse"; the "plunge" into the water symbolizes the catechumen's burial into Christ's death, from which he rises up by resurrection with him, as "a new creature."

    1215 This sacrament is also called "the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit," for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God."

    1216 "This bath is called enlightenment, because those who receive this [catechetical] instruction are enlightened in their understanding . . . ."8 Having received in Baptism the Word, "the true light that enlightens every man," the person baptized has been "enlightened," he becomes a "son of light," indeed, he becomes "light" himself:

    Baptism is God's most beautiful and magnificent gift. . . .We call it gift, grace, anointing, enlightenment, garment of immortality, bath of rebirth, seal, and most precious gift. It is called gift because it is conferred on those who bring nothing of their own; grace since it is given even to the guilty; Baptism because sin is buried in the water; anointing for it is priestly and royal as are those who are anointed; enlightenment because it radiates light; clothing since it veils our shame; bath because it washes; and seal as it is our guard and the sign of God's Lordship.

    BAPTISM IN THE ECONOMY OF SALVATION


    Prefigurations of Baptism in the Old Covenant

    1217 In the liturgy of the Easter Vigil, during the blessing of the baptismal water, the Church solemnly commemorates the great events in salvation history that already prefigured the mystery of Baptism:

    Father, you give us grace through sacramental signs,
    which tell us of the wonders of your unseen power. In Baptism we use your gift of water,
    which you have made a rich symbol
    of the grace you give us in this sacrament.

    1218 Since the beginning of the world, water, so humble and wonderful a creature, has been the source of life and fruitfulness. Sacred Scripture sees it as "overshadowed" by the Spirit of God:

    At the very dawn of creation
    your Spirit breathed on the waters,
    making them the wellspring of all holiness.13

    1219
    The Church has seen in Noah's ark a prefiguring of salvation by Baptism, for by it "a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water":

    The waters of the great flood
    you made a sign of the waters of Baptism,
    that make an end of sin and a new beginning of goodness.

    1220 If water springing up from the earth symbolizes life, the water of the sea is a symbol of death and so can represent the mystery of the cross. By this symbolism Baptism signifies communion with Christ's death.

    1221 But above all, the crossing of the Red Sea, literally the liberation of Israel from the slavery of Egypt, announces the liberation wrought by Baptism:

    You freed the children of Abraham from the slavery of Pharaoh,
    bringing them dry-shod through the waters of the Red Sea,
    to be an image of the people set free in Baptism.

    1222
    Finally, Baptism is prefigured in the crossing of the Jordan River by which the People of God received the gift of the land promised to Abraham's descendants, an image of eternal life. The promise of this blessed inheritance is fulfilled in the New Covenant.
     
  7. bandgeek500

    bandgeek500 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2004
    Messages:
    28
    Ratings:
    +1
    i'm not sure if baptism should be necessary. i don't think it determines whether you go to hell or heaven.
     
  8. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +950
    John 1:32 - when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.


    John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." When Jesus said "water and the Spirit," He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit).

    John 3:22 - after teaching on baptism, John says Jesus and the disciples did what? They went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus' teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism.

    John 4:1 - here is another reference to baptism which naturally flows from Jesus' baptismal teaching in John 3:3-5.


    2 Kings 5:14 - Naaman dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, and his flesh was restored like that of a child. This foreshadows the regenerative function of baptism, by water and the Holy Spirit.

    Isaiah 44:3 - the Lord pours out His water and His Spirit. Water and the Spirit are linked to baptism. The Bible never separates them.

    Ezek. 36:25-27 - the Lord promises He will sprinkle us with water to cleanse us from sin and give us a new heart and spirit. Paul refers to this verse in Heb. 10:22. The teaching of Ezekiel foreshadows the salvific nature of Christian baptism instituted by Jesus and taught in John 3:5, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21 and Acts 22:16.


    Matt. 28:19-20 - Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." Many Protestant churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture and the 2,000 year-old teaching of the Church.



    Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

    Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 - there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

    Mark 16:16 - Jesus said "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved." Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”

    John 3:3,5 - unless we are "born again" of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase "born again" is "anothen" which literally means “begotten from above.” See, for example, John 3:31 where "anothen" is so used. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.

    Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?

    Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 - these texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?

    Acts 9:18 - Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.

    Acts 22:16 - Ananias tells Paul, "arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins," even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul's acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.

    Acts 22:16 - further, Ananias' phrase "wash away" comes from the Greek word "apolouo." "Apolouo" means an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin. Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.

    Rom. 6:4 - in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.

    1 Cor. 6:11 - Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism. The “washing” of baptism gives birth to sanctification and justification, which proves baptism is not just symbolic.

    Gal. 3:27 - whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul.

    Col. 2:12 - in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic.

    Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.” This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation.

    There is also a definite parallel between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5: (1) John 3:5 – enter the kingdom of God / Titus 3:5 – He saved us. (2) John 3:5 – born of water / Titus 3:5 – washing. (3) John 3:5 – born of the Spirit / Titus 3:5 – renewal in the Spirit.

    Heb. 10:22 - in baptism, our hearts are sprinkled clean from an evil conscience (again, dealing with the interior of the person) as our bodies are washed with pure water (the waters of baptism). Baptism regenerates us because it removes original sin, sanctifies our souls, and effects our adoption as sons and daughters in Jesus Christ.

    1 Peter 3:21 - Peter expressly writes that “baptism, corresponding to Noah's ark, now saves you; not as a removal of dirt from the body, but for a clear conscience. “ Hence, the verse demonstrates that baptism is salvific (it saves us), and deals with the interior life of the person (purifying the conscience, like Heb. 10:22), and not the external life (removing dirt from the body). Many scholars believe the phrase "not as a removal of dirt from the body" is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision (but, at a minimum, shows that baptism is not about the exterior, but interior life). Baptism is now the “circumcision” of the new Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), but it, unlike the old circumcision, actually saves us, as Noah and his family were saved by water.

    Again, notice the parallel between Heb. 10:22 and 1 Peter 3:21: (1) Heb. 10:22 – draw near to the sanctuary (heaven) / 1 Peter 3:21 – now saves us. (2) Heb. 10:22 – sprinkled clean, washed with pure water / 1 Peter 3:20-21 – saved through water, baptism. (3) Heb. 10:22 – from an evil conscience (interior) / 1 Peter 3:21 – for a clear conscience (interior). Titus 3:6 and 1 Peter 3:21 also specifically say the grace and power of baptism comes “through Jesus Christ” (who transforms our inner nature).

    Mark 16:16 - Jesus says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. However, the Church has always taught that baptism is a normative, not an absolute necessity. There are some exceptions to the rule because God is not bound by His sacraments.

    Care for more chuck? :bonk:
     
  9. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,780
    Ratings:
    +1,925
    Prehaps I'm being picky.... but is baptism necessary for what? I don't understand your question because it is incomplete. :confused:
     
  10. logos

    logos Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2004
    Messages:
    63
    Ratings:
    +4
    Thanks Scott. I was not done posting but a guy over here was giving away free ice cream. I guess, as a result, I finished a little prematurely.
     
  11. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2004
    Messages:
    11,110
    Ratings:
    +1,669
    GOD ON THE BAPTISM OF JESUS
    As for baptism, this was Jesus' idea of establishing a covenant with ME. Was it important? He thought so. The symbolism of baptism has
    ALL(WAYS) been a cleansing or a fresh start, whether it BE through water or through fire. Is baptism necessary? That depends on the individual. Do I demand or expect it? No. I LOVE you either way.


    GOD ON BAPTISM IN RELIGION
    Consider baptisms the first act a parent commits to in the formation of how they expect their children to act and live. You can almost anticipate the uphill conflict they will have with their child throughout the ages. I AM not casting judgment on ALL parents or religions because I observe that children will eventually adopt, change, or drop their inherited faith as they grow older. They usually implement this by themselves. Think about what baptisms are for a moment, though. It's like parents are saying, "Welcome to the family! Now I expect you to grow up in exactly this manner."

     
  12. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +950
    No problem my friend....and FYI= if it were up to me, free ice cream would be an important part of baptism! :D

    Scott
     
  13. Nicky_uk

    Nicky_uk Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2004
    Messages:
    20
    Ratings:
    +2
    Dont forget the chocolate! :D
     
  14. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +950
    For Mr Spinkles:

    Mmmmmmmmmmm............ chocolate.
     
  15. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,768
    Ratings:
    +399
    If only everyone in this forum could posess such infinite wisdom and understanding as yourself. Unfortunately, we apparetnly don't, so until then if you could refrain from expecting us to read your mind and/or assume you're basing your question solely on Christian principles and beliefs, that'd be great!

    Now then, I would like to second Maize's question. Is baptism necessary to get into heaven? Is it necessary to remove 'original sin'? Is baptism necessary for a person to be considered holy and good? Is baptism necessary for god to love you? You see what's going on here? So many choices, each one with so many possibilities. Plaease specify one, all, or other, if you would.
     
Loading...