Yes, yes -- we've heard all that nonesense before. And for the record, not collecting stamps is a hobby, too, right?
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Is atheists and agnotics pagan?
- Thread starter Starlight
- Start date
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
Hello Evangelicalhumanist I post scriptures... I pointed out to you your own belief now it looks like you also believe in nonsense! ONLY...
Evangelicalhumanist only man out of all creatures God created can Thank God! I thank my creator for all good things including my Faith!!
Callisto
Hellenismos, BTW
Funnily, everything Christians accuse others of is of their own history: The Greeks and Romans deemed them atheos (godless) because they denounced the Roman gods, who subsequently chose to be asebeia (impious), dyssebeis (blasphemous), and apostantes (apostates, having abandoned Roman gods and even that of Judaism in favor of their own creation).
Good for you, but I don't need anybody to post scriptures for me. I own a couple of Bibles, and for the record, I have read them. Thoroughly!
I think that means that you simply did not understand what I wrote -- which is odd, because scripture is a lot more obscure than anything I ever say.
You make the claim that atheism "is a belief," while I claim that it is not -- it is a lack of belief. Absence, nothing there. Sin creencia.
Nessuna fede.
Absence of belief is not belief. In exactly the same way, absence of a stamp collection is not evidence of a hobby.
Only man out of all creatures can invent fantasy stories, too. Doesn't make them true.
Proof to your satisfaction is not necessary for me to doubt your claims. Lack of evidence is all I need to have doubt faith is not necessary.
Going by that definition, most would classify you as Pagan.
Pagan is a type of theism. By definition atheists and agnostics cannot be pagan.
I'm a heathen, but not a pagan.
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
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Evangelicalhumanist I hope all is well... You said.. You make the claim that atheism "is a belief," while I claim that it is not -- it is a lack of belief. Absence, nothing there. Sin creencia.
Nessuna fede.
Absence of belief is not belief. In exactly the same way, absence of a stamp collection is not evidence of a hobby.
I reply: You do NOT believe in God! You "BELIEVE" there is NO god! You still have your beliefs; no getting around it!
I believe in God, because I cannot prove outright there is a god.. I BELIEVE! So it is a belief in God!
Evangelicalhumanist You cannot PROVE there is NOT a god so all you have is your belief! You somehow PROVE there is no god then you will KNOW and your belief is proven, your belief stops being a BELIEF and becomes a FACT! BUT....
Evangelicalhumanist but until then all you have is your BELIEF!
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
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Kfox good to meet you..
I reply: Until the sun rises in the morning all you have is FAITH and Belief it will rise! You have yesterday to help your FAITH in the sun rising today!
Until you can PROVE there is not a god all you are going on is your FAITH there isn't! You BELIEVE there is NOT a god until you can PROVE your belief it remains your FAITH! You lack FACT!
Throughout your day you run on faith! You have faith the stove will get hot when you turn the knob, until you turn the knob it remains a Belief and your FAITH!
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
A Pagan is a person NOT in God' family!
What is it with religious types, that they feel it necessary to rephrase what I say so that they can pretend I mean something other than what I really do mean? It is most pernicious habit, and one that you ought to be ashamed of. It is not nice to imply that someone is a liar, only by changing their words around.
Look, if a friend of mine says, "I am secretly worth $10 billion," I would very likely not believe him. There seems little evidence in what I've known about him for the past several years that suggests it is true. But it is also possible -- and since there are privacy laws in Canada, I cannot prove that what he says is true, and therefore I do not call him a liar and say "I believe that you are not worth $10 billion." Instead, I say, "that may be so, but I don't believe it. I might, however, change my mind after you provided evidence, but until then, I'm afraid not."
But what about the other 7 Gods in the Pantheon? Can you prove outright that they do not exist? Why, even your Bible implies that there are others: it says, "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me." How could believers "have other Gods" if other Gods don't exist? That's a problem that exists because in fact the Israelites arose from within the peoples of Canaan -- they were Canaanites (and Hebrew is a Canaanite language offshoot), and they believed in other Gods. It would thus appear that at some point they decided that though there were others, they were only going to pay attention to one of them, and the rest be damned.
So why don't you believe in the other Gods, that you cannot prove outright do not exist?
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The Christian definition of Faith is to believe where there is no empirical evidence. (I’m using the Christian definition because it is my understanding that is your belief) Your Bible defines faith as
“The substance of things hoped for, evidence of things unseen”
IOW if you can see it, it is not faith. Empirical evidence is NOT something unseen. I have empirical evidence that the Sun will appear to rise in the morning (unless cloud cover) I have empirical evidence that when I turn the knob on the stove, it will activate the burner and get hot; these things don’t require faith because empirical evidence is involved.
As far as believing your God doesn’t exist, that is not necessary; I can believe whatever it is you choose to call God does exist, but not believe the claims you make of him. Perhaps I believe Yahweh was just an evolved being from another planet who came to Earth when mankind was primitive and primitive man made these beings deity of their worship. Don’t get me wrong, that isn't my belief, I’m just pointing out what an atheist could believe without claiming Yahweh does not exist.
But assuming Yahweh is a figment of some very wild imaginations (which I do believe) I don’t need faith to believe this. Just like there are by definition no square circles (due to contradiction of descriptions) I can conclude if Yahweh is described as all good, yet he does bad things, if he is described as being all wise, yet does foolish things, if he is described as fair, yet does unfair things, this is enough for me to conclude he is not what you say he is; and the fact that nobody can provide any evidence that he exists, is evidence enough for me that he does not exist. Faith is not needed for any of this.
A person who worships Ahura Mazda will say you are not in God’s family thus pagan, because you worship the wrong God, and you will say the same thing about him because he doesn’t recognize your God. It basically comes down to name calling.
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
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Evangelicalhumanist Hello again...
It's not what I believe it's what the word implies. To believe is; to not know as a FACT! UNTIL....
Evangelicalhumanist until you know for sure it remains a belief. At best: "You think you are right"! You think there is no god, you cannot prove there isn't a god! That's it, that's all!
Here is an Atheist having FAITH he is right! The Atheist "BELIEVES" there isn't a god he lacks faith IN a god!
You have Faith and you Believe no different then I; I believe and have faith in God!
I could go on reminding you of "Pascal's Wager" an idea having nothing to do with faith or belief but LOGIC! This argument by Pascal is a start: "What if; What I believe is wrong & what if what I believe is right"? Nothing about the right god or no god just plain old logic "What would be the best outcome!?"
Merry Christmas
Sand Dancer
Crazy Cat Lady
Pagans generally believe in a god and/or goddess. Atheists don't believe in any deities. Agnostics say deities can't be proven, so they can be of any or no religion.
Sand Dancer
Crazy Cat Lady
I think agnosticism is a 'new religious movement' that originated in England or Wales in the 1970s. Atheism, on the other hand, is a new religious movement that originated in the same decade but in the US. To this day, nobody can find evidence that one was based on the other.
Agnosticism has been around for a long time. I think the first use of the term was from Thomas Huxley in 1869. Maybe you are thinking of neo-paganism?
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
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Kfox You jump to conclusions! Empirical evidence involves Science, Scientists record and analyze this data.
Faith is BELIEF in the Unseen in the Unmeasurable, it does not involve science. The Christian has Faith In a God, you don't believe in a god you "BELIEVE there isn't a god!" you can't prove your belief with science! You have FAITH you are right!
The Christian definition of Faith is to believe where there is no empirical evidence. You do NOT have empirical evidence that when I turn the knob on the stove, it will activate the burner and get hot Until you turn the knob you have a THEROY, you have a BELIEF, you have FAITH!
Dogknox20
Well-Known Member
It comes down to the Definition!
............................................................
noun
(no longer in technical use) one of a people or community observing a polytheistic religion, as the ancient Romans and Greeks.
a member of a religious, spiritual, or cultural community based on the worship of nature or the earth; a neopagan.
Disparaging and Offensive.
- (in historical contexts) a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim; a heathen.
- an irreligious or hedonistic person.
- an uncivilized or unenlightened person.
Please give it a rest. I take offense at being told what I believe and what I do not.
Atheism is an absence of belief in the existence of gods. The absence of a belief cannot itself be a belief. Just like the absense of money cannot be equated to being able to afford a couple of beers at the local.
The root for the word atheism originated before the 5th century BCE from the ancient Greek ἄθεος (atheos), meaning "without god(s)". See? "Without." Absence. Not present. Not belief.