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Is atheistic Satanism a contradiction?

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Define "real".
Even among pagans some concepts of deity are pretty atheistic, so I don't see why a LHPer, i.e. someone who wants to claim the position of deity for themselves (at least in their subjective universe), would need to have an external deity that is objectively real.

And you seem to have ignored the rest of my comment which was my actual argument. That paragraph you quoted was just some philosophical amendment which I edited to my post afterwards.
Semantics. If theistic, then should be claimed as such.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Yes, sometimes being an atheistic Satanist rather seems like belonging to a fandom - but in these times where chaos magick spreads, can we really see a clear distinction anymore between having a deity and being fan of a fictional character?
I'm sure theists of any particular stripe can be atheistic toward another's deity. All Hail Cthulhu and The Flying Spaghetti Monster. May the Force be with you.
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Why if theistic?
I was argueing why even if not theistic one can be religious.
Because the topic of deity/ arises, or entity, satan. This could mean actual religion concerning such, should be theistic. That is the thread premise.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
If the belief in satan is meant to be theistic, then the religion of "satanism"should follow that course. Atheistic satanism, basically arising from counterculturalism , was intended to being a "spooky" image to the movement, as opposed to actual theistic satanism.

This brings us to the question, is it contradictory? Does the lack of religious actuality, make it not really a religion?
Separation of the sacred and the profane, or making the profane sacred and the sacred profane really doesn't require deity.
 
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Liu

Well-Known Member
Because the topic of deity/ arises, or entity, satan. This could mean actual religion concerning such, should be theistic. That is the thread premise.
And that premise is what I was critizising.
I don't know whether any actual deities exist, but in any case, our concepts of them are concepts, ideas, thoughts. In that way at least, Satan is not necessarily an entity but at least a concept, and therefore someone working with this concept in a religious-like fashion can in my opinion call themselves a Satanist, no matter whether they believe the concept is related to an actual entity or not.

Separation of the sacred and the profane, or making the profane sacred and the sacred profane really doesn't require deity.
Nor does doing away with the categories of sacred and profane.

I'm sure theists of any particular stripe can be atheistic toward another's deity. All Hail Cthulhu and The Flying Spaghetti Monster. May the Force be with you.
I was actually referring to people who consider themselves atheists although they work with deities. Anyway, hail Discordia!
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
And that premise is what I was critizising.
I don't know whether any actual deities exist, but in any case, our concepts of them are concepts, ideas, thoughts. In that way at least, Satan is not necessarily an entity but at least a concept, and therefore someone working with this concept in a religious-like fashion can in my opinion call themselves a Satanist, no matter whether they believe the concept is related to an actual entity or not.

Entity is different from concept, but ok.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If the belief in satan is meant to be theistic, then the religion of "satanism"should follow that course. Atheistic satanism, basically arising from counterculturalism , was intended to being a "spooky" image to the movement, as opposed to actual theistic satanism.

This brings us to the question, is it contradictory? Does the lack of religious actuality, make it not really a religion?

I don't know much about Satanism, but there appears to be two very different kinds of people calling themselves Satanists, one theistic and the other atheistic.

The former seem to actually believe in Satan as an actual supernatural god whom they worship.

The second seem to be secular humanists fighting the incursion of the church into secular government, meaning that they are also antitheists. They don't believe that Satan exists, and they have no interest in magic or spells or worship. They just use Satan to oppose the Christians when they can't get their invocations, school book fairs, after school Christian clubs, or public displays like creches off of public property or out of public schools. The next step is to petition to give Satanic invocation, put out material that any secular humanist would approve of into book fairs, start up after school meetings using the word Satan, or get statues of Baphomet placed next to the crosses or whatever on publicly owned properties. This frequently causes the Christians to withdraw whatever it was that they were doing or promoting.

Here's a typical comment from such a group:

"It’s important that children be given an opportunity to realize that the evangelical materials now creeping into their schools are representative of but one religious opinion amongst many. While the Good News Clubs focus on indoctrination, instilling them with a fear of Hell and God’s wrath, After School Satan Clubs will focus on free inquiry and rationalism, the scientific basis for which we know what we know about the world around us. We prefer to give children an appreciation of the natural wonders surrounding them, not a fear of everlasting other-worldly horrors." After School Satan – The Satanic Temple’s Extracurricular Program for Public Schools

Here's a statement that surprised me when I first saw it:

Seven Satanic Tenets:

  • One should strive to act with compassion and empathy towards all creatures in accordance with reason.
  • The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.
  • One's body is inviolable, subject to one's own will alone.
  • The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo your own.
  • Beliefs should conform to our best scientific understanding of the world. We should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit our beliefs.
  • People are fallible. If we make a mistake, we should do our best to rectify it and resolve any harm that may have been caused.
  • Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.
Those are words that I can find no fault with. They embody my values. There isn't a hint of religion or supernaturalism, and no mention of Satan except in the heading.

I hadn't heard the term atheistic Satanism before today, but that would be a good name for this movement and its secular strategy.

But to answer your question, yes, the term is oxymoronic if taken at face value.
 

Liu

Well-Known Member
I don't know much about Satanism, but there appears to be two very different kinds of people calling themselves Satanists, one theistic and the other atheistic.

The former seem to actually believe in Satan as an actual supernatural god whom they worship.

The second seem to be secular humanists fighting the incursion of the church into secular government, meaning that they are also antitheists. They don't believe that Satan exists, and they have no interest in magic or spells or worship. They just use Satan to oppose the Christians when they can't get their invocations, school book fairs, after school Christian clubs, or public displays like creches off of public property or out of public schools. The next step is to petition to give Satanic invocation, put out material that any secular humanist would approve of into book fairs, start up after school meetings using the word Satan, or get statues of Baphomet placed next to the crosses or whatever on publicly owned properties. This frequently causes the Christians to withdraw whatever it was that they were doing or promoting.

Here's a typical comment from such a group:

"It’s important that children be given an opportunity to realize that the evangelical materials now creeping into their schools are representative of but one religious opinion amongst many. While the Good News Clubs focus on indoctrination, instilling them with a fear of Hell and God’s wrath, After School Satan Clubs will focus on free inquiry and rationalism, the scientific basis for which we know what we know about the world around us. We prefer to give children an appreciation of the natural wonders surrounding them, not a fear of everlasting other-worldly horrors." After School Satan – The Satanic Temple’s Extracurricular Program for Public Schools

Here's a statement that surprised me when I first saw it:

Seven Satanic Tenets:

  • One should strive to act with compassion and empathy towards all creatures in accordance with reason.
  • The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.
  • One's body is inviolable, subject to one's own will alone.
  • The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo your own.
  • Beliefs should conform to our best scientific understanding of the world. We should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit our beliefs.
  • People are fallible. If we make a mistake, we should do our best to rectify it and resolve any harm that may have been caused.
  • Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.
Those are words that I can find no fault with. They embody my values. There isn't a hint of religion or supernaturalism, and no mention of Satan except in the heading.

I hadn't heard the term atheistic Satanism before today, but that would be a good name for this movement and its secular strategy.

But to answer your question, yes, the term is oxymoronic if taken at face value.
The secular humanist variety of atheistic Satanism is actually rather new - normally atheistic Satanism is associated with the philosophy of Anton LaVey, which is closer to utilitarian hedonism or rational egoism or however you wanna call it.

And the theistic ones often don't worship a deity either, nor do all of them believe in the supernatural. But I guess that is semantics in many cases.

Entity is different from concept, but ok.
Please re-read my comment. I never said that entity = concept, on the contrary.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The secular humanist variety of atheistic Satanism is actually rather new - normally atheistic Satanism is associated with the philosophy of Anton LaVey, which is closer to utilitarian hedonism or rational egoism or however you wanna call it.

Thanks for that. As I indicated, I know very little about any form of satanism. Yes, I noticed that there appears to be a third variety of satanists that fit your description - people that admire Nietzsche and Ayn Rand, philosophies that this secular humanist rejects.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If the belief in satan is meant to be theistic, then the religion of "satanism"should follow that course. Atheistic satanism, basically arising from counterculturalism , was intended to being a "spooky" image to the movement, as opposed to actual theistic satanism.

This brings us to the question, is it contradictory? Does the lack of religious actuality, make it not really a religion?
Well you have nicely pointed out a conflict that exists inside and outside religion! If the conflict in context to both then that has to be addressed directly. But then addressing it, how does one do that if, the process of addressing it is in fact the problem itself? It's like the philosopher who recognizes the problem, without recognizing that the process of philosophy is the problem itself. Like realizing that there are more notes inside a single fret but then simply only understanding frets on a guitar. An interesting problem i attempt to articulate here on religious forum with only fret descriptions available at the same time.. fiction seems to be the best solution!!!! Like a song, it's not science it's not religion it's something else and it's very much an aspect of nature at the same time. Fiction is a something beyound religion, science, and philosophy and is not just for artists.
 
I don't know much about Satanism, but there appears to be two very different kinds of people calling themselves Satanists, one theistic and the other atheistic.

The former seem to actually believe in Satan as an actual supernatural god whom they worship.

The second seem to be secular humanists fighting the incursion of the church into secular government, meaning that they are also antitheists. They don't believe that Satan exists, and they have no interest in magic or spells or worship. They just use Satan to oppose the Christians when they can't get their invocations, school book fairs, after school Christian clubs, or public displays like creches off of public property or out of public schools. The next step is to petition to give Satanic invocation, put out material that any secular humanist would approve of into book fairs, start up after school meetings using the word Satan, or get statues of Baphomet placed next to the crosses or whatever on publicly owned properties. This frequently causes the Christians to withdraw whatever it was that they were doing or promoting.

Here's a typical comment from such a group:

"It’s important that children be given an opportunity to realize that the evangelical materials now creeping into their schools are representative of but one religious opinion amongst many. While the Good News Clubs focus on indoctrination, instilling them with a fear of Hell and God’s wrath, After School Satan Clubs will focus on free inquiry and rationalism, the scientific basis for which we know what we know about the world around us. We prefer to give children an appreciation of the natural wonders surrounding them, not a fear of everlasting other-worldly horrors." After School Satan – The Satanic Temple’s Extracurricular Program for Public Schools

Here's a statement that surprised me when I first saw it:

Seven Satanic Tenets:

  • One should strive to act with compassion and empathy towards all creatures in accordance with reason.
  • The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.
  • One's body is inviolable, subject to one's own will alone.
  • The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo your own.
  • Beliefs should conform to our best scientific understanding of the world. We should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit our beliefs.
  • People are fallible. If we make a mistake, we should do our best to rectify it and resolve any harm that may have been caused.
  • Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.
Those are words that I can find no fault with. They embody my values. There isn't a hint of religion or supernaturalism, and no mention of Satan except in the heading.

I hadn't heard the term atheistic Satanism before today, but that would be a good name for this movement and its secular strategy.

But to answer your question, yes, the term is oxymoronic if taken at face value.

The Satanic temple represents Satanism in the same way squirt guns represent violence.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
If the belief in satan is meant to be theistic, then the religion of "satanism"should follow that course. Atheistic satanism, basically arising from counterculturalism , was intended to being a "spooky" image to the movement, as opposed to actual theistic satanism.

This brings us to the question, is it contradictory? Does the lack of religious actuality, make it not really a religion?

Because the topic of deity/ arises, or entity, satan. This could mean actual religion concerning such, should be theistic. That is the thread premise.

Well, then, let us look at one example of "religion" from one theistic standpoint:
James 1:26-27
26 If anyone thinks he is religious without controlling his tongue, then his religion is useless and he deceives himself. 27 Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself unstained by the world.​

This post seems to show concern for children in their distress:
I don't know much about Satanism, but there appears to be two very different kinds of people calling themselves Satanists, one theistic and the other atheistic.

The former seem to actually believe in Satan as an actual supernatural god whom they worship.

The second seem to be secular humanists fighting the incursion of the church into secular government, meaning that they are also antitheists. They don't believe that Satan exists, and they have no interest in magic or spells or worship. They just use Satan to oppose the Christians when they can't get their invocations, school book fairs, after school Christian clubs, or public displays like creches off of public property or out of public schools. The next step is to petition to give Satanic invocation, put out material that any secular humanist would approve of into book fairs, start up after school meetings using the word Satan, or get statues of Baphomet placed next to the crosses or whatever on publicly owned properties. This frequently causes the Christians to withdraw whatever it was that they were doing or promoting.

Here's a typical comment from such a group:

"It’s important that children be given an opportunity to realize that the evangelical materials now creeping into their schools are representative of but one religious opinion amongst many. While the Good News Clubs focus on indoctrination, instilling them with a fear of Hell and God’s wrath, After School Satan Clubs will focus on free inquiry and rationalism, the scientific basis for which we know what we know about the world around us. We prefer to give children an appreciation of the natural wonders surrounding them, not a fear of everlasting other-worldly horrors." After School Satan – The Satanic Temple’s Extracurricular Program for Public Schools

Here's a statement that surprised me when I first saw it:

Seven Satanic Tenets:

  • One should strive to act with compassion and empathy towards all creatures in accordance with reason.
  • The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.
  • One's body is inviolable, subject to one's own will alone.
  • The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo your own.
  • Beliefs should conform to our best scientific understanding of the world. We should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit our beliefs.
  • People are fallible. If we make a mistake, we should do our best to rectify it and resolve any harm that may have been caused.
  • Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.
Those are words that I can find no fault with. They embody my values. There isn't a hint of religion or supernaturalism, and no mention of Satan except in the heading.

I hadn't heard the term atheistic Satanism before today, but that would be a good name for this movement and its secular strategy.

But to answer your question, yes, the term is oxymoronic if taken at face value.
 

SabahTheLoner

Master of the Art of Couch Potato Cuddles
If the belief in satan is meant to be theistic, then the religion of "satanism"should follow that course. Atheistic satanism, basically arising from counterculturalism , was intended to being a "spooky" image to the movement, as opposed to actual theistic satanism.

This brings us to the question, is it contradictory? Does the lack of religious actuality, make it not really a religion?

Atheistic Satanists believe Satan is a symbol for indulgence, individualism, their own ego and power. An atheistic Satanist is atheist in the sense that they believe any god doesn't exist, but many are also egotheistic (or I-theistic, according to Peter Gilmore), believing that the worship of the self brings power. The atheistic Satanist makes a point of utilizing the aspect and meaning of Satan; Satan is a concept where the name is translated as "the adversary", meaning one who is cast out as neither of any concrete aliences. In that context, atheistic Satanism isn't a contradiction, but a way for non-theists to embrace a powerful concept without a need to believe in Satan as their literal god.

Historically, Satan or the Devil was not one being, but a Judeo-Christian idea of evil. Satan was personified as Lucifer, Belial, the Lord of Hell, and many other faces. So when Satan is worshiped, how do you know he is literally one being and not a collective consciousness of condemned spirits? How do you know that he literally exists as his own person? How do you know if some of the actions you carry out are not the actions of Satan, evil or generous? Does this mean humans are Satan?

A Satanist, by the purest definition, theistic or not, is one who embraces the name of Satan as a way to become themselves, and the most powerful version of that self. Some will dedicate themselves to a god by that name to seek power. Others claim they worship no gods because they must seek power for themselves. Either way, it's all Satanism, and it's all for the individual.
 
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Blah blah blah.

Look, Satanism is very simple. A Satanist is one who is aligned with Satan.

Where it gets nuanced is in how one defines Satan. For me, that is also quite simple, he is the antinomos. That which runs counter, that which is other, the wheel of progress in which the old dies and the new emerges.

He isn't alive, or an entity, but an existent function of reality that is itself real, both subjectively where he is useful, and objectively where he is evident.
 

Liu

Well-Known Member
Blah blah blah.

Look, Satanism is very simple. A Satanist is one who is aligned with Satan.

Where it gets nuanced is in how one defines Satan. For me, that is also quite simple, he is the antinomos. That which runs counter, that which is other, the wheel of progress in which the old dies and the new emerges.

He isn't alive, or an entity, but an existent function of reality that is itself real, both subjectively where he is useful, and objectively where he is evident.
I can basically subscribe to this. Just, I would see two parts of this from a slightly different perspective:

Everything is "other" from one point of view or another. Even order is "other" to chaos. Therefore this definition of Satan as the other is not something I'd consider the conclusion, but more a starting point of seeing the many ways in which Satan can be considered to be manifesting in this world.

Open end concepts like this are also where we get all these many interpretations of Satanism from that are as contrary to each other as e.g. the CoS and the TST.

And, not an entity... that's where things get complicated. I'm an agnostic, but I assume that consciousness is basically underlying everything and that also such things as thoughtforms/egregores might have consciousnesses, if they exist at all. Therefore, even if Satan is considered a principle that wouldn't necessarily mean that it's not an entity.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
If the belief in satan is meant to be theistic, then the religion of "satanism"should follow that course. Atheistic satanism, basically arising from counterculturalism , was intended to being a "spooky" image to the movement, as opposed to actual theistic satanism.

This brings us to the question, is it contradictory? Does the lack of religious actuality, make it not really a religion?
If it isn't about the literal Lucifer then satanism can easily be symbolic of anarchy and anti-authoritarian. Like with Buddhism it can be non-religious or religious, theistic or atheistic. How religious it would be depends on the individual.
 
I can basically subscribe to this. Just, I would see two parts of this from a slightly different perspective:

Everything is "other" from one point of view or another. Even order is "other" to chaos. Therefore this definition of Satan as the other is not something I'd consider the conclusion, but more a starting point of seeing the many ways in which Satan can be considered to be manifesting in this world.

Open end concepts like this are also where we get all these many interpretations of Satanism from that are as contrary to each other as e.g. the CoS and the TST.

And, not an entity... that's where things get complicated. I'm an agnostic, but I assume that consciousness is basically underlying everything and that also such things as thoughtforms/egregores might have consciousnesses, if they exist at all. Therefore, even if Satan is considered a principle that wouldn't necessarily mean that it's not an entity.
Yes, one point of view or another.

Of which we each have one. Us, our ideas, our people, our experiences, our passions..and then there is everyone and everything else.

That these things are not alike for any two of us is why each of our Satan's will look different on the small scale. In doing the work your perspective will change in a way that following a book or teacher will not change it.

Where RHP people tend to look the same in their beliefs(they are being fed into them top down, thus uniformity) LHP Satanists will and can not(as their beliefs about the world are built of experience, bottom up)

Complete inversion.

That you disagree with me on specifics while other things overlap means you are probably doing it right :p
 
If the belief in satan is meant to be theistic, then the religion of "satanism"should follow that course. Atheistic satanism, basically arising from counterculturalism , was intended to being a "spooky" image to the movement, as opposed to actual theistic satanism.

This brings us to the question, is it contradictory? Does the lack of religious actuality, make it not really a religion?
Satanism is an actual, legit religion and it always will be. In my opinion True Satanism is simply Pre-Abrahamic Paganism and that our ancient ancestors practiced "Satanism" under different names and cultures, such as Paganism.

Satanism is extremely diverse, it is NOT one religion or one belief system. You are only asking if LaVeyan Satanism and Atheistic Satanism are actual religions though, but I don't think Satanism in general is "meant to be theistic". There are also Independent Satanists, who are the equivalent of Non-Denominational Christians. The answer depends on the individual.
 
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