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Featured Is atheistic Satanism a contradiction?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by syncretic, Jun 16, 2017.

  1. syncretic

    syncretic Veteran Member

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    If the belief in satan is meant to be theistic, then the religion of "satanism"should follow that course. Atheistic satanism, basically arising from counterculturalism , was intended to being a "spooky" image to the movement, as opposed to actual theistic satanism.

    This brings us to the question, is it contradictory? Does the lack of religious actuality, make it not really a religion?
     
    #1 syncretic, Jun 16, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
  2. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    'religious actuality'?

    Some Satanic beliefs seem both religious in terms of organization, ritual, etc, and atheistic. Just like some are non-religious theists.

    It sounds like your conflating religion and theism.
     
  3. syncretic

    syncretic Veteran Member

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    Religion doesn't necessarily mean theism, however it's contextual. The same question could be asked of atheistic christianity etc.
     
  4. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Sure. So take LaVeyan Satanism...why would you wonder whether it's a religion or not.
     
  5. syncretic

    syncretic Veteran Member

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    I explained that in the op.
     
  6. syncretic

    syncretic Veteran Member

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    What type of theism is it?
     
  7. Hammerheart

    Hammerheart Individual Thought Patterns

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    A blackened form of deism.
     
  8. syncretic

    syncretic Veteran Member

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    Deism isn't theism.
     
  9. questfortruth

    questfortruth Active Member

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    The satan is the false atheist. He denies the authority of God Father, so he denies the almightiness of the Almighty One. Look the link in my signature:
     
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  10. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    No, not really. You posted the question, and suggested some issues with the term 'satanism'. Agree or disagree, I can see your point there, but I'm not seeing what about it is non-religious.
     
  11. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    'false atheist'

    Heh...love it.
     
  12. syncretic

    syncretic Veteran Member

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    Ie anything can be a religion, true; however the premise is, is it a contradiction.
     
  13. syncretic

    syncretic Veteran Member

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    Whether something is a religion, is subjective.
     
  14. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    That would include the problem of Christianity, Judaism, Islam and the many many churches and divisions, sects and variations.
     
  15. Hammerheart

    Hammerheart Individual Thought Patterns

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    Theism refers to "belief in a deity" in a general sense. Deism is a form of theism where the deities revered are unnamed, fluid forces as opposed to concrete beings.
     
  16. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Not by my reckoning.
     
  17. Kapalika

    Kapalika Musician and Mystic
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    Actual Satanist here.

    I put in bold the problem. Anyone can mean a belief to mean anything.

    However I do agree that LaVeyan Satanism is rather moot, overall. I wouldn't consider it counterculture but a reaction to 60's counterculture. It's lost it's appeal to people these days because it refused to grow as an organization which might be for the better, as it's leadership has always been rather... toxic in a way. Gilmore tries to act all cool and paint his religion as having the nicest people but a lot of the Satanic Rules of the Earth mirror a confrontational tough-guy way of looking at socializing. It's too tit for tat which if you know anything about game theory is a good way to start a defect spiral. It just seems adversarial for adversarial's sake. And I can't respect a group who so unempathetically labels others in the ways that it does.

    I think that Satanism evolved, LaVey just made it accessible to some degree, giving some level of a toolbox but really it was with the internet that all these theistic satanists presumed to never exist came out of the woodwork. I think they were there for a very long time, long before LaVey, but just had no voice. LaVey normalized it enough that they felt they could come out of the shadows. Many were theists, or some kind of nontheist or whatever. Many I've met are pantheists too.

    That's my thoughts anyway.
     
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  18. Liu

    Liu Active Member

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    If.
    A major part of people calling themselves Satanists are not theistic.
    And while I don't know whether atheistic or theistic Satanism is older (I would assume the latter), it was first made really popular in more or less atheistic form.
    I wouldn't say religion needs a deity, as there are several established religions that have no deity, or at least not something they consider a deity themselves (e.g. Taoism and forms of Buddhism).

    One could say that someone who does nothing even remotely religious with their Satanism (i.e. no rituals, no symbolism, no religious feelings, no celebrations, ...) and considers for example the Satanic Bible nothing but their favourite self-help book, might rather be considered to have a philosophy and no religion.
    But that is not what being an atheistic Satanist has to mean.

    Yes, sometimes being an atheistic Satanist rather seems like belonging to a fandom - but in these times where chaos magick spreads, can we really see a clear distinction anymore between having a deity and being fan of a fictional character?

    I agree that deism is a form of theism as it is a believe in a deity.

    But as far as I know, deism means believing that a deity created the world and then stopped interferring with it.

    Might be that there are other definitions of deism, though, that are a bit closer to pantheism, i.e. there is a deity but it doesn't contradict natural laws but rather manifests through them.
    That would be probably what people mean when they say that LaVey was a deist.
     
  19. syncretic

    syncretic Veteran Member

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    Yes..., theism means that whatever is the deity, is considered real.
     
  20. Liu

    Liu Active Member

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    Define "real".
    Even among pagans some concepts of deity are pretty atheistic, so I don't see why a LHPer, i.e. someone who wants to claim the position of deity for themselves (at least in their subjective universe), would need to have an external deity that is objectively real.

    And you seem to have ignored the rest of my comment which was my actual argument. That paragraph you quoted was just some philosophical amendment which I edited to my post afterwards.
     
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