Is atheism a religion?

[Trailblazer]

Then in the post to me, you claim that you were not wrong, but don't explain why.

Maybe you cannot read. I just agreed with you thus admitting I was wrong.

I said: No, it is not a hasty generalization to assume that most religions think that theirs is the only true religion. Most religions believe that.

If you believe that the Baha'i faith will be superseded by another faith, why are you still there and following its teachings?

Simple, because it has not been superseded yet, and it will not be superseded until at least the year 2852, when the next Messenger of God appears.

 

[Trailblazer]

That makes it even worse...........
If one gets rewarded or punished for things that one can not choose.... then that is akin to punishing or rewarding somebody for being black or caucasian.

NO, that is not the same. You can choose to believe or disbelieve because you have free will.
You cannot choose to be a black or a Caucasian because that is not subject to free will.

 

[Trailblazer]

Those are the claims that are in need of evidence...........................................

Have at it, there is plenty of evidence.

Woosh!

That was the point, flying over your head.

What point? There is nothing better than what we have, original scriptures penned in the hand of the Prophet.

 

[Trailblazer]

You know who is not easily persuaded? People who are sceptical of claims that have bad or no evidence.
You know who IS easily persuaded? People who don't care about evidence, don't recognize evidence, who aren't skeptical of bare claims.

So yes, to just believe things on bad evidence, is being gullible.

You do not define what is good and bad evidence for anyone else except yourself because YOU do not set the standards for evidence.

If you do not like the evidence that is provided by God, so be it. That is all you are going to get because nobody can make an Omnipotent God do anything, logically speaking.

"IF", yes. Which is not the case here.
This is why religions require "faith" instead.

And you know that there is not sufficient evidence exactly HOW?
You never even looked, you just assumed.

No, religions require faith because God cannot be proven to exist, so we have to take that on faith.
You atheists think you are so superior to believers but you are not because you cannot understand simple logic.

Faith = gullibility

No the two words mean totally different things.

“I never told you to “just believe” anything.”

You did. Every time you said god isn't testable. Without testability, all I'm left with is to "just believe" (or not, off course).

Spoiler Alert! You are just a mere human being. You do not get to test the Almighty God.
The only testing you can do is the reading what has been revealed in scriptures and reading about the Messenger of God in order to ascertain if He was really a Messenger of God.

God does not need your belief because God does not need anything.

Faith isn't rational.

It is if it is based upon reason.

“There is evidence but not proof that God exists.”
Claims aren't evidence.

I never said they were the evidence. You have to check out the claims to determine if they are legitimate, like duh.

It's the very nature of religious belief.
If there were rational evidence, it wouldn't be religion but common knowledge.

No, you are wrong. God does not want to be common knowledge so He never will be. Religion is the evidence that God exists, take it or leave it. God does not give a rip because God does not need your belief, God does not need anything from anyone.

God does not want it to be common knowledge that He exists... Wanna know why? God does not want everyone to know He exists, He only wants those who are willing to LOOK at the evidence He provides.

That eliminates the atheists who think they can tell an Omnipotent God how to prove he exists, laughable at best, sickening at worst.

“Revelations ARE the evidence.”

No, those are claims. THE claims, even, in a lot of cases.

There is evidence that support those claims to be a Messenger of God.

“All the evidence that supports the truth of the Revelations.”

Such as? More revelations and anecdotes?
Piling on claims, does not evidence make.

To be clear, the evidence that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be is not that Baha’u’llah claimed to receive a message from God because that would be circular reasoning.

The evidence that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be is everything that surrounds the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, including who He was as a Person (His character); His mission on earth; the history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward; the scriptures that He wrote; what His appointed Interpreters wrote; what others have written about the Baha’i Faith; the Bible prophecies that He fulfilled, as well as prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled; predictions He made that have come to pass; the religion that He established (followers) all over the world and what they have done and are doing now.

“God does value rationality. God did make Himself known when He sent Messengers who revealed Him.”

Are you again pretending that all religious believers are in your camp, while in reality only 0.1% of people actually agree with you?

It is totally irrelevant how many religious believers are in my camp. God made Himself known through other Messengers before my religion was revealed and more Messengers will come in the future.

Supporting a god is not my job, since I'm not the one claiming such a thing exists.
Do your own homework.

You are the one who needs to do the homework if you want to believe in God. I already did my homework.

“Because that many people cannot be wrong about something that vital to existence.”

"that many"? You mean the 0.1% that share your particular religious beliefs?

Don’t waste your time with that ploy. It does not matter if everyone believes in my religion. 93% of people believe in God.

I don't consider it vital at all. Au contraire. I consider it detrimental and at best a distraction.

Then don’t waste your time or my time talking about god.

It matters if you are going to pretend that those 93% are all in your camp, while in reality it's only 0.1%

I never said they were on the same campsite but they are in the same campground.

So are you claiming that in the future, the 0.1% of your fellow believers, will grow out to 30-40%?
Not that it matters to the point being made.

No, it will eventually grow to 100%, because eventually everyone in the world will recognize Baha'u'llah and there will only be one religion.

“I do not think the other religions are false. All major religions are true but they no longer apply to the current age of history.”

So god amused himself with revealing completely contradicting and mutually exclusive religions to the point where the followers thereof even fight wars over it?

God has revealed different religions throughout history to suit the needs of those times. People change and the world changes over time. That is why we need a new religion in every age. That is called Progressive Revelation.

Religious beliefs are not objectively testable because God is not an objective reality.

You got that right. God is not an objective reality. Can we all go home now?

Exactly. God is a subjective reality. AKA: he exists between the ears of believers. Not in the real world.

God exists everywhere, because God is Omnipresent. This world is not the real world, would you but know it. It is just a reflection of the spiritual world, which is the real world.

 

[Trailblazer]

Much of what Baha'u'llah wrote is obvious fabrication as I clearly demonstrated in previous posts. There are things he is credited with writing.

You did not demonstrate anything and you can't because everything Baha'u'llah wrote is wholly authentic. The original scriptures Baha'u'llah wrote are all in a vault in the research center in Haifa, Israel. Some are on display in museums.

In His lifetime, Baha’u’llah’s writings were recorded as they were revealed. In some instances, Baha’u’llah, in masterful calligraphy, wrote with His own hand some of the sacred verses that constitute His vast body of writings.

Often, Baha’u’llah would recite verses aloud, and these would be transcribed by secretaries. Eyewitness accounts of individuals who observed the manner by which Baha’u’llah’s writings were revealed shed light on the extraordinary nature of these works. To keep up with the large volume of verses, secretaries would rapidly transcribe His words in an often illegible handwriting that only they could read, referred to as “Revelation Writing.” The exhibition includes an example of these original texts.

Later, these texts would be rewritten, at times requiring Baha’u’llah to decipher them, before a final copy was ready to be shared. Baha’u’llah’s writings spread far and wide across the Ottoman and Persian lands and further afield, reaching to the Far East.

Exhibition of Baha’u’llah’s Writings Opens at British Museum​

 

[Trailblazer]

So you admit that your "looking into it" led you to believe something that may not be truth.

No that is not what I said.
I said that proper investigation does not always lead one to the truth.
One has to do the proper investigation in order to determine if what they are investigating is the truth
I did the proper investigation and it led me to believe in something that is the truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nonsense. This is the same ego-driven prating that we hear from every religious person: My God is the Real God; My Religion is the Real Religion.

That is like saying this Chevy and this Ford and this Toyota all run about the same so there cannot be a different car out there somewhere that runs better. It is illogical to assume there isn't just because all those cars run the same. This is the fallacy of jumping to conclusions, nothing that difficult.

There is nothing that you can present that lends more credence to your claims than those of any other person.

There is plenty but I have decided I am not going to waste any more of my time presenting it to atheists.

 

[Trailblazer]

Let's look at just one:

• Equality of women and men.

First of all that is a Wiki page about Bahai. It is not actual scriptual writings. Nevertheless, if we take the time to actually read and learn (did you?), we see that there are exceptions:

In terms of Bahá'í administration, all positions except for membership on the Universal House of Justice are open to men and women. No specific reason has been given for this exception, but `Abdu'l-Bahá has stated that there is a wisdom for it, which would eventually become clear.
​

Trailblazer, has enough time passed where it has become clear why women cannot become members on the Universal House of Justice?

No, not enough time has passed. We will find out in due time, not that it matters to me. It does not nullify the principle of the equality of men and women.

The Báb clearly states that the Qur’án was given by God to man. Therefore, teachings from the Qur’án are the word of God:

4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
​

Clearly, writings from The Bab and writings from God's Qur’án clearly state that "Equality of women and men" is not supported by scripture. How did you not know this?
Yeah, I know what you are going to say, God teaches different things at different times to different people. Uh huh.

The Revelation of Muhammad was abrogated by the Revelation of the Bab. The Bab taught equality of men and women and he was persecuted for going against what Islam taught.

As a child, Siyyid ‘Alí-Muhammad was known for His noble character. He was born in Shíráz, Persia (now Iran) in 1819. At school, He explained parts of the Qur’án, the Muslim holy book, with great insight. His teacher said he felt unworthy to teach a child with such wisdom and “mysterious power.”

On May 22, 1844, ‘Alí-Muhammad announced that He was a Messenger of God. He became known as “the Báb,” meaning “the Gate” in Arabic. He gained many followers, called Bábís.

Muslim leaders tried to stop the Báb. They imprisoned Him, but His Faith kept growing. He revealed new laws and teachings, such as the equality of women and men and the elimination of extreme poverty.

He urged people to improve their characters. He said, “Let angelic virtues be your adorning…” He also told His followers that another Messenger of God would soon appear.

Unable to stop the Báb’s teachings from spreading, officials fiercely persecuted the Bábís. The Bábís bravely tried to defend themselves, and thousands were killed in tragic battles and massacres.

Finally, the Báb was sentenced to execution on July 9, 1850, in Tabríz, Iran. He and a young Bábí named Anís were suspended by ropes in the courtyard of the army barracks. A crowd of 10,000 people watched as 750 soldiers fired at the prisoners.

But when the smoke cleared, the Báb had vanished! Anís stood alone and unharmed under the severed rope. The Báb was found back in His prison cell, talking with His secretary. He calmly told the guard, “I have finished my conversation…Now you may proceed to fulfill your intention.” But the guard was so shaken, he left his post immediately.

The leader of the firing squad was also deeply affected, and he refused to let his soldiers fire again. A second firing squad was called, and the prisoners were suspended as before. This time, the Báb and Anís were killed—but amazingly, their faces were barely touched.

The Bábís mourned the Báb’s tragic death, and they continued to be persecuted. Yet they also sought the new Messenger of God foretold by the Báb. In time, Bahá’u’lláh announced that He was the promised Messenger.

The Báb is buried in a majestic shrine on Mount Carmel in Haifa, Israel. It is a place of pilgrimage for Bahá’ís.

The Báb | Brilliant Star​

 

[ecco]

Maybe you cannot read. I just agreed with you thus admitting I was wrong.

I said: No, it is not a hasty generalization to assume that most religions think that theirs is the only true religion. Most religions believe that.

Simple, because it has not been superseded yet, and it will not be superseded until at least the year 2852, when the next Messenger of God appears.

Why the long gap?
The Bab was superseded by Bahá'u'lláh shortly after The Bab's death.

 

[ecco]

You atheists think you are so superior to believers but you are not because you cannot understand simple logic.

That's quite funny.

 

[ecco]

You have to check out the claims to determine if they are legitimate,

I did check out some of your claims. It was quite easy to determine they were not legitimate.

 

[ecco]

You did not demonstrate anything and you can't because everything Baha'u'llah wrote is wholly authentic.

I'll not again recap all the problems I showed about the writings of Bahá’u’lláh and Shoghi Effendi.

Nevertheless, perhaps you can show your true knowledge and understanding of Bahá’u’lláh's writing by summarizing the meaning of
EPISTLE TO THE
SON OF THE WOLF

 

[ecco]

No, it is only blind faith if one believed it without looking at it.
In that sense they went into it blindly.

Whether it is true or not is an entirely different matter.

So you admit that your "looking into it" led you to believe something that may not be truth.

No that is not what I said.
I said that proper investigation does not always lead one to the truth.
One has to do the proper investigation in order to determine if what they are investigating is the truth
I did the proper investigation and it led me to believe in something that is the truth.

You did what you believe is a proper investigation and it led you to believe in something that you believe is the truth.

Remember, your own words: Whether it is true or not is an entirely different matter.

 

[ecco]

That is like saying this Chevy and this Ford and this Toyota all run about the same so there cannot be a different car out there somewhere that runs better.

That's a really poor analogy and representative of grasping at straws. A much closer analogy is that Green Arrow and Green Lantern and Bat Woman and Cat Woman are all cartoon characters and not real persons. Therefore, if one reads a comic book and sees stories about The PurpleBab, then one can safely assume that The PurpleBab is a cartoon character and not a real person.

More important for your religious beliefs is that many gods/messengers would have to be real for your religion to be real.

This is the fallacy of jumping to conclusions, nothing that difficult.

Understanding human history is not jumping to conclusions.

ecco said: ↑
There is nothing that you can present that lends more credence to your claims than those of any other person.​

There is plenty but I have decided I am not going to waste any more of my time presenting it to atheists.

I'd be willing to bet that you do continue to present your "knowledge" to atheists and anyone else who will listen.

 

[ecco]

The Revelation of Muhammad was abrogated by the Revelation of the Bab. The Bab taught equality of men and women and he was persecuted for going against what Islam taught.

Yep, yep and yep. The OT God said, "Don't eat lobster". Christians eat lobster. When asked why they eat lobster, they say the new laws abrogate the old laws -how convenient.

With Mohammed and The Bab: It's OK to beat your wives;

Speaking of convenient, I notice you conveniently skipped over this rather damning example of your equality for women assertions.

In terms of Bahá'í administration, all positions except for membership on the Universal House of Justice are open to men and women. No specific reason has been given for this exception, but `Abdu'l-Bahá has stated that there is a wisdom for it, which would eventually become clear.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why the long gap?
The Bab was superseded by Bahá'u'lláh shortly after The Bab's death.

Throughout religious history there has been about 500-1000 years in between the Manifestations of God, so what you might want to ask is why the short gap between the Bab and Baha'u'llah. It is unprecedented that two major Manifestations of God would come so close together.

The answer lies in the fact that the Bab ushered in an entirely new religious cycle called the Cycle of Fulfillment (the Baha'i Cycle). The primary purpose of the Revelation of the Bab was to announce the coming of Baha'u'llah and to bridge the gap in between Islam and the Baha'i Faith, since their social teachings and Laws were markedly different.

The Babi religion was like a transition religion between the Adamic Cycle (which began with Adam and ended with Muhammad) and the Baha'i Cycle of religion. It was never intended by God that the Babi religion would last more than 19 years. The Bab clearly stated to his followers that His purpose was to announce "Him Whom God shall make manifest" which was Baha'u'llah.

“HE is God, no God is there but Him, the Almighty, the Best Beloved. All that are in the heavens and on the earth and whatever lieth between them are His. Verily He is the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.

This is a letter from God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting, unto God, the Almighty, the Best Beloved, to affirm that the Bayán and such as bear allegiance to it are but a present from me unto Thee and to express my undoubting faith that there is no God but Thee, that the kingdoms of Creation and Revelation are Thine, that no one can attain anything save by Thy power and that He Whom Thou hast raised up is but Thy servant and Thy Testimony. I, indeed, beg to address Him Whom God shall make manifest, by Thy leave in these words: ‘Shouldst Thou dismiss the entire company of the followers of the Bayán in the Day of the Latter Resurrection by a mere sign of Thy finger even while still a suckling babe, Thou wouldst indeed be praised in Thy indication. And though no doubt is there about it, do Thou grant a respite of nineteen years as a token of Thy favour so that those who have embraced this Cause may be graciously rewarded by Thee. Thou art verily the Lord of grace abounding. Thou dost indeed suffice every created thing and causest it to be 8 independent of all things, while nothing in the heavens or on the earth or that which lieth between them can ever suffice Thee.’” Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 6-7​

 

[Trailblazer]

That's quite funny.

It would be funny if it was not so sad.

There is an atheist on another forum I post on who cannot even understand why he cannot know more than an All-Knowing God. He thinks that he knows more than god would know if god existed regarding the right way to communicate to humans. This dialogue has been going on for about five years and the atheist forum owner finally had to tell both me and him to shut up. This is not the first time he has told us that, but hopefully it will be the last.

This atheist also says that if was god omnipotent god could do anything but he does not understand why the converse also applies: an omnipotent god would never do anything it did not want to do. This atheist does not understand why an omnipotent god doesn't do what he wants it to do.

It is amazing how anyone can be that illogical.

He thinks he could know more than an All-knowing God, which is logically impossible because nobody can be more than All-Knowing. He also thinks that God makes mistakes. I told him an infallible God cannot make a mistake but then he said that there is nothing in logic that would require god to be infallible... He also says that god could be evil because there is nothing in logic that would require god to be benevolent.

The list goes on. He makes god in his own image, whatever is convenient to try to win an argument.

 

[Trailblazer]

I did check out some of your claims. It was quite easy to determine they were not legitimate.

Everyone has their own opinions but that does not prove anything, logically speaking, since all opinions differ.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nevertheless, perhaps you can show your true knowledge and understanding of Bahá’u’lláh's writing by summarizing the meaning of
EPISTLE TO THE
SON OF THE WOLF

I do not need to demonstrate my knowledge because I am not an egotist.
You can read that for yourself if you want to know:

Bahá'u'lláh's Epistle to the Son of the Wolf
Epistle to the Son of the Wolf - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

You did what you believe is a proper investigation and it led you to believe in something that you believe is the truth.

Remember, your own words: Whether it is true or not is an entirely different matter.

Only God and His Messengers know if it is the truth.

Logically speaking, that means that only God and His Messengers know if it is false.