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Is according to Jews everything God's will?

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Does God hate sin? Most assuredly.

But this doesn't mean that the price of sin is infinite. All your evidence above is taken from the New Testament, which as you know carries no authority for me.

If people face God's wrath and go to hell, it will be because they choose to. The God who created this universe has given us proof of His existence, yet many refuse to acknowledge it. The Bible explains that the "lake of fire" was originally prepared "for the devil and his angels," but people who obey these evil beings will go into the lake of fire with them.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Romans 6:16

It isn't God's desire that people go to hell, but He give us the free will to choose. As we read in Psalm 139:8, "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." There is a saying, "You made your bed; now lie in it!" So "making our bed" is a preparation for lying in it. That is, our actions determine our future-like it or not. While we spend our time preparing to go to hell, God is with us. We can turn to Him at any moment and say, "God, I'm sorry I've offended you. Please get me out of this mess and put me on the right track," and He will help us. But once we're dead and in hell, it's too late to ask for help. In the Matthew passage above we learned that hell wasn't originally created with people in mind. Heaven was:

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (Matthew 25:34).
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Gehenna is a temporary hell. Temporary, where we are purified.

The Bible is very explicit about the fact that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. He says:

As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live (Ezekiel 33:11)

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

It is not a happy day for Him when someone dies and goes to hell. Many people believe it is unfair for God to send individuals to hell for eternity. God is being entirely fair, based on their rejection of Him. If people don't want anything to do with Him here on earth, why would we think they would want anything to do with Him on the other side? If they hate the thought of God in this life, they will hate being with Him in the next.

Author Frank Harber stated:

For God to force people to go to heaven against their wishes wouldn't be heaven-it would be hell. Atheist author Jean-Paul Sarte noted that the gates of hell are locked from the inside by the free choice of men and women. C.S. Lewis wrote: There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way." We are given the freedom to choose between evil and good, between God's will and our own. God is simply honoring our choices-and allowing us to face the consequences.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Where is your counter argument about there being no prophecy for the messiah being called a Nazarene?

Isaiah 11:1 and Isaiah 53:3 mention or hint at the Messiah being from Nazareth.

And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Zechariah 9:9–10 depicts a savior who is riding a donkey, in lowly fashion. Nazareth was a lowly town where people wouldn't expect the Messiah to come from.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
If people face God's wrath and go to hell, it will be because they choose to. The God who created this universe has given us proof of His existence, yet many refuse to acknowledge it. The Bible explains that the "lake of fire" was originally prepared "for the devil and his angels," but people who obey these evil beings will go into the lake of fire with them.

Matthew 25:41

Romans 6:16

It isn't God's desire that people go to hell, but He give us the free will to choose. As we read in Psalm 139:8, "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." There is a saying, "You made your bed; now lie in it!" So "making our bed" is a preparation for lying in it. That is, our actions determine our future-like it or not. While we spend our time preparing to go to hell, God is with us. We can turn to Him at any moment and say, "God, I'm sorry I've offended you. Please get me out of this mess and put me on the right track," and He will help us. But once we're dead and in hell, it's too late to ask for help. In the Matthew passage above we learned that hell wasn't originally created with people in mind. Heaven was:

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (Matthew 25:34).
Again, the Christian idea of eternal hell based on belief makes no sense at all -- people do not choose their beliefs. We are either convinced or we are not convinced, we do not choose.

Again, worthlessly quoting the New Testament. Spinning your wheels. Sheesh.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Isaiah 11:1 and Isaiah 53:3 mention or hint at the Messiah being from Nazareth.





Zechariah 9:9–10 depicts a savior who is riding a donkey, in lowly fashion. Nazareth was a lowly town where people wouldn't expect the Messiah to come from.
None of these verses even remotely suggests the Messiah coming from Nazareth. Not even a smidgeon of a hint. You are literally seeing things that aren't there.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
None of these verses even remotely suggests the Messiah coming from Nazareth. Not even a smidgeon of a hint. You are literally seeing things that aren't there.

A branch that shall grow out of his roots hints that the Messiah would come from a lowly background. Jesus came from Nazareth.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
A branch that shall grow out of his roots hints that the Messiah would come from a lowly background. Jesus came from Nazareth.
Remarking on his ancestry
1. says nothing about whether a person is rich or poor
2. says nothing about what town a person hails from

You are doing singularly badly at proving your point.

I think it is best if you simply acknowledge that there is no prophecy to the effect that the messiah comes from Nazareth.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Remarking on his ancestry
1. says nothing about whether a person is rich or poor
2. says nothing about what town a person hails from

You are doing singularly badly at proving your point.

I think it is best if you simply acknowledge that there is no prophecy to the effect that the messiah comes from Nazareth.

Nazareth was not a prestigious place. It was a place that could easily be described as a place of a lowly background.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Nazareth was not a prestigious place. It was a place that could easily be described as a place of a lowly background.
So what? Unless you can supply a verse that says the messiah will come from Nazareth, Christians lose their credibility, since the gospel will have claimed a prophecy that does not exist.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
So what? Unless you can supply a verse that says the messiah will come from Nazareth, Christians lose their credibility, since the gospel will have claimed a prophecy that does not exist.

Jesus was born in Bethlehem but he was raised in Nazareth. There is no inconsistency between the Messiah being born in Bethlehem and raised in Nazareth. Where was Jesus born? | GotQuestions.org

Question: "Where was Jesus born?"

Answer:
The Bible chronicles Jesus Christ’s birth in Matthew 1:18–25; 2:1–12; Luke 1:26–38; and 2:1–20. At the time of Mary’s pregnancy, a decree by Caesar Augustus went out that “all the world should be registered” (Luke 2:1). This meant that every person in the Roman Territory was required to return to the city of their ancestors to be counted in a census.

Joseph lived in Nazareth at the time but needed to travel south to the region of Judea, “to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David” (Luke 2:4). Naturally, Joseph took his betrothed, Mary, to go with him to be counted as a member of his family. Thus, the young couple ended up in the small town of Bethlehem at the time of Jesus’ birth.

This location aligns with the prophecy foretold by Micah, proclaiming that the Christ would be born in Bethlehem: “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times” (Micah 5:2).

Because so many had returned to Bethlehem for the census, the small city was overflowing with people. There was no room for Mary and Joseph in the inn, which forced them to take refuge in the only place available—a shelter for animals. (Although the Bible never mentions animals being present at the birth of Christ, Luke does say that the baby Jesus was laid in a manger—and the presence of a manger strongly implies the presence of animals.)

Traditionally, the “inn” referred to in Luke 2:7 is thought to be a kind of commercial hotel. And the place where Mary and Joseph took shelter was a stable somewhere in the vicinity. However, we don’t know for sure if that was the case, because the Greek word translated as “inn” (kataluma) can also be translated as “guest room.” This translation would lead us to envision more of a private home filled with guests, plus a separate area used to house the family’s animals.

Sometimes the place for animals was located on the lower level of a house, away from where the people lived. So, when Luke refers to “no room in the kataluma,” he could have meant there was no room on the upper level, which was already full of sleeping visitors or family. Archaeological findings have also revealed homes that merely had a wall separating the front of the house from the back, where animals were kept safe. Both of these floor plans imply an indoor animal shelter connected to the house in some way. Regardless, there was a manger or feeding trough in the place where Christ was born, and that was used as a resting place for the newborn Jesus, as stated in Luke 2:7.

There is also a theory that the shelter in which Jesus was born was a place in the northern part of Bethlehem called Migdol Eder. This was a watchtower with a place underneath that shepherds used during the lambing season to shelter the newborn lambs that would later be used as sacrifices in the Jerusalem temple. The prophet Micah, who foretold Bethlehem as the place of the Messiah’s birth, also mentions Migdol Eder: “As for you, watchtower of the flock [Hebrew, Migdol Eder], stronghold of Daughter Zion, the former dominion will be restored to you; kingship will come to Daughter Jerusalem” (Micah 4:8). This theory is used to explain why, when the heralding angels gave the sign that the baby would be “wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger,” the shepherds seemed to know exactly where to look. And it would be apropos for the Messiah to be born in the same place where the sacrificial lambs were born.

Whether the actual location of Jesus’ birth was an indoor animal shelter, a separate barn, or a tower used for lambing, the Bible is clear that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was born in a humble setting in the town of Bethlehem.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Jesus was born in Bethlehem but he was raised in Nazareth. There is no inconsistency between the Messiah being born in Bethlehem and raised in Nazareth. Where was Jesus born? | GotQuestions.org
What you said above doesn't matter. I'm not debating whether Jesus was born in Bethlehem or grew up in Nazareth. I'm simply pointing out that there is NO PROPHECY that the messiah will come from Nazareth. What you are saying above has absolutely no relationship to that. None.

Now I know you have looked for this prophecy in the Tanakh and have been unable to find any such thing. Why? Because it is a fact that no such prophecy exists.

The best thing for you to do at this point is to simply admit the truth: that the gospel has completely made up a prophecy out of whole cloth. That is the ONLY honest response. Anything short of that would only show a lack of credibility.
 
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Skywalker

Well-Known Member
What you said above doesn't matter. I'm not debating whether Jesus was born in Bethlehem or grew up in Nazareth. I'm simply pointing out that there is NO PROPHECY that the messiah will come from Nazareth. What you are saying above has absolutely no relationship to that. None.

Now I know you have looked for this prophecy in the Tanakh and have been unable to find any such thing. Why? Because it is a fact that no such prophecy exists.

The best thing for you to do at this point is to simply admit the truth: that the gospel has completely made up a prophecy out of whole cloth. That is the ONLY honest response. Anything short of that would only show a lack of credibility.

The concept does not have to be explicitly mentioned to be there. It's underlined. For example, F. F. Bruce said, "No single form of messianic expectation was cherished by Jesus' contemporaries, but the hope of a military Messiah predominated. The promises of a prince of the house of David who would break the oppressor's yoke from his people's neck seemed to many to be designed for such a time as theirs, whether the yoke was imposed by a Herodian ruler or by a Roman governor". Some modern Christians criticize the Old Testament Israelites' misunderstanding of the type of Messiah the scriptures promised and the first-century Jew's initial blindness to Jesus. But today we read the Old Testament with the benefit of the New Testament's clarifying revelations, and we cannot assume we would have greater perception than they did before these revelations existed. This also applies to original sin in the Old Testament.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The concept does not have to be explicitly mentioned to be there. It's underlined. For example, F. F. Bruce said, "No single form of messianic expectation was cherished by Jesus' contemporaries, but the hope of a military Messiah predominated. The promises of a prince of the house of David who would break the oppressor's yoke from his people's neck seemed to many to be designed for such a time as theirs, whether the yoke was imposed by a Herodian ruler or by a Roman governor". Some modern Christians criticize the Old Testament Israelites' misunderstanding of the type of Messiah the scriptures promised and the first-century Jew's initial blindness to Jesus. But today we read the Old Testament with the benefit of the New Testament's clarifying revelations, and we cannot assume we would have greater perception than they did before these revelations existed. This also applies to original sin in the Old Testament.
A prophecy is either there or it is not there. It is kind of like being pregnant -- you can't be just sort of pregnant.

Again, you have been unable to show me any prophecy which states that the messiah will come from Nazareth. That means that you, and Christianity, lose.

The one thing I have learned from this exchange is that you are completely incapable of replying to the topic. You give one response after another that are totally unrelated to the messiah coming from Nazareth.

I consider the topic closed. It is obvious to everyone now that you cannot supply a verse, since none exists. It is equally obvious that you cannot even address the topic.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
A prophecy is either there or it is not there. It is kind of like being pregnant -- you can't be just sort of pregnant.

Again, you have been unable to show me any prophecy which states that the messiah will come from Nazareth. That means that you, and Christianity, lose.

It's underlined that the Messiah of Israel would come from humble origins. Because the Old Testament doesn't explicitly state that the Messiah and the Suffering Servant would be the same exact person, even the apostles doubted who Jesus was. A lot of things are underlined in Old Testament prophecies but are not mentioned directly.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
It's underlined that the Messiah of Israel would come from humble origins. Because the Old Testament doesn't explicitly state that the Messiah and the Suffering Servant would be the same exact person, even the apostles doubted who Jesus was. A lot of things are underlined in Old Testament prophecies but are not mentioned directly.
Again, the topic is: supply a verse that says the messiah come from Nazareth.

You have been given enough chances. Clearly you can't do it, because no such verse exists.

Topic is shut. You lose.

Be well.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Did Israel forsake God?
Well, this is not a debate section. Seems a presumptuous question though.

I believe that the Bible teaches that Israel forsake God. All Israel Shall Be Saved! The End Times Salvation of Israel

The light of the Gospel will shine on Israel in the end times.

All through Scripture, the Bible prophesies that in the end times, a remnant of Jewish believers will come to a full acknowledgment of Jesus Christ as the prophesied Messiah and Savior of the Old Testament. The plan of salvation of God involved the Jews initially rejecting their Messiah and coming to a full saving faith as a nation during the final years before the Second Coming of The Lord. This article will explain the reconciliation of the remnant and their supernatural fate in the kingdom of the Antichrist.

THE REJECTION OF JESUS CHRIST LED TO SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS

Today, many devout Jewish people do not worship according to Scripture.

“Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.” – Matthew 23:34-39.

In this powerful passage The Lord Jesus Christ rebuked the nation of Israel for their rejection of Him and all of the prophets and men of God who pointed to the coming of the Savior throughout the Old Testament. This was the moment when The Christ should have been received by the twelve tribes. But because of their spiritual rebellion and false religion (promoted by the Pharisees and Sadducees) they “would not” receive the Savior. And not only did they reject The Lord, they demanded He put to death which was carried out by Pontius Pilate.

As a result, the Israelites would be cut off and punished (chiefly by the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem itself which took place in 70AD by the Roman Empire as prophesied by Jesus Christ). In the intervening centuries much of Jewish thought became guided by non-Biblical texts like the Talmud and Zohar. But note that in the very last verse of Matthew 23, Jesus told His Jewish audience that they would not “see” Him again until they said “Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.” In the midst of the rebuke and judgment was a glimmer of hope – one day Israel would indeed “see” Jesus Christ for who He truly Is: The Son of God and prophesied Messiah of The Old Testament.




 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Of course it does. What do you get when you systemically don't follow the basic principles and tenets of a religion and uphold principles entirely foreign and even heretical to that religion? Answer: A different religion/worldview.

Following Jesus isn't inconsistent with being Jewish. Jewish people who believe in Jesus say that it made them more Jewish. Jesus fulfilled all of the prophecies of the Old Testament. One can keep Jewish identity and believe in Jesus-the two are not mutually incompatible. Observing festivals or new moons is a non-issue for Christians.

How Popular Atheist Jewish Writer, Andrew Klavan, Became a Christian. | Reasons for Jesus

Klavan explains that he started reading the Bible when he was just 15. He did not read the Bible because he had any actual intention of seeking God; rather, he read it because he wanted to be a writer and, quite rightly, saw the Bible an important work of literature that has influenced not only billions of peoples lives but countries and nations too. He recounts how this resulted in conflict with his dad,

One day my father walked into my bedroom without knocking and caught me reading Luke’s Gospel. He was livid. He told me if I ever thought of converting he would disown me.” This struck him as strange because his dad was himself not religious at all especially when it came to the religious aspects of Judaism. One could speculate that the reason for his father’s anger was most likely because his father understood how important the religion of Judaism is to Jewish culture. Thus, he thought that by dabbling in another religion, or worse yet converting to another religion, his son would essentially be rejecting his heritage.

Klavan would also meet the Jesus of the gospels as a result of him having such an interest in the Bible as a work of literature, “I knew who Jesus was, of course. I had plenty of Christian friends and he was all around in the culture. But I think my first serious engagement with him was literary. When I was about fifteen, I read the King James Bible—not religiously, but because I wanted to be a writer and I knew it was a seminal work of literature, like Shakespeare’s plays.

Jesus seemed to interest Klavan because he was a figure of such importance in Western thought though this interest didn’t extend to spiritual pursuits, “I wanted to explain him, to interpret him, to understand why he stood at the center of everything. But again, it was an intellectual and literary endeavor, not a spiritual one.

But the historical Jesus would prove to be more than just another character of history; he began to impress Klavan the more he studied him, “If you think of God as a great city you have to explore, it was like, every street I walked down, there was Jesus waiting for me.” This, he explains, urged him to begin praying although prayer was something he left behind many years ago, “No one could’ve been more surprised than me, really. I had started to pray—almost off-handedly, almost as an experiment.” Klavan says that over time he could begin to see changes happen in his life,

But the effect of it on my life was huge. In fact, over the course of, say, three or four years, I realized that steady personal prayer had changed and improved my entire life, inside and out. And I was humbled by that, you know, and I sort of said to God, “Dude, you’ve done this incredible thing for me, and I’d like to do something for you. But I’m just me and you’re, like, God. What can I possibly do?” And the answer came back to me almost instantly: I had to get baptized. And I was, like, “You gotta be kidding me! Do I even believe in that?” But when I started to think it through, I realized that I did.”

So, Klavan would get baptized at the age of 50 and explains how this frightened him given his nominal Jewish background, “One of my biggest fears confronting baptism—took me five months to work through it—was I didn’t want anyone to think I was turning my back on Jews, trying to escape my Jewish identity. The default mode with some Jews is to assume you’re trying to “pass as gentile” or blend in or that you hate your Jewishness and are joining the enemy. All understandable, because the Jews are the most mistreated group of people on the face of the planet and some of that trouble has come out of Christian sources, which stinks.

ODDLY, THOUGH, ACCEPTING JESUS MADE ME FEEL MORE JEWISH THAN I EVER HAD, RELIGIOUSLY AT LEAST. I HAD NO CONNECTION TO THE OLD TESTAMENT PARTICULARLY, UNTIL I ACCEPTED THE NEW.”
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Following Jesus isn't inconsistent with being Jewish.
It actually is.
Jewish people who believe in Jesus say that it made them more Jewish
That's nice, but that doesn't make what they believe actually Jewish.
One can keep Jewish identity and believe in Jesus-the two are not mutually incompatible.
You're conflating here Jewish identity and the Jewish religion (i.e. Judaism). Those are not the same.
 
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