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Featured Is according to Jews everything God's will?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by ayin, Dec 22, 2020.

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  1. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure Matthew didn't see this promise in isolation. I believe he read it in the broader context of Isaiah 7-11, one of the key prophetic sections that point toward Jesus as Messiah. In Isaiah 7, he is about to be born; in Isaiah 9, he is already born and declared 'mighty God', the divine king; and in Isaiah 11 he is ruling and reigning in the supernatural power of the Spirit. As Matthew looked back at these prophecies, it would have been apparent that these chapters were linked together and that the promises of a worldwide, glorious reign of the promised Messiah were not yet realized. In Chapter 8, Maher-Slalal-Hash-Baz is born. It seems that for Isaiah's contemporaries, this birth virtually took the place of the birth of Immanuel, leaving this important prophetic announcement without any record of fulfillment for more than seven hundred years. Some people say that if Immanuel's birth was supposed to be a sign for Ahaz, then it wouldn't make sense that it would refer to the birth of Jesus seven centuries later. This fails to account for a few things. First, this was a promise to the house of David as a whole, and promises to Davidic kings often had meaning beyond their own generations. Second, the birth of Maher-Slalal-Hash-Baz seems to take the place of the Immanuel prophecy in terms of the immediate historical context. Third, the prophecy is shrouded in obscurity, and so Matthew could legitimately examine it afresh and seek its deeper meaning. I think Matthew's interpretation was legitimate. He sees the supernatural birth, this Immanuel figure, as part of a larger messianic complex of passages, and he applies this difficult part of scripture with genuine insight to Yeshua.
     
  2. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    That's lovely. The word in Jeremiah ISN'T the word "ha'adam." The verse in question says it refers to grown, male warriors. Try again.
     
  3. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The fall of man is why poisonous plants exist in nature. They were not how things were meant to be. They are not how God intended creation to be. Genesis 3:18-19

     
  4. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Again, when you are shown to be wrong, you just pivot and say something completely unrelated. So noted.
     
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  5. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The heart of man being desperately wicked and who can know it is a reference to human nature being sinful. We aren't sinners because we sin we sin because we are sinners.
     
  6. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    You are repeating the same errors about "wicked" and ignoring all the contarry information I presented, and then coupling it with some strange claim about being sinners even before we sin. Useless. TFP.
     
  7. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Original sin is supported by the idea that the religious teaching of stop sinning you are no longer a sinner is not biblical. Our hearts are twisted.
     
  8. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Then Jesus could not have been the Messiah, since, having no bio dad, he was not of the line of David.

    You can have the Davidic line, or you can have the virgin birth, but you cannot have both.



    The Messiah is not God. He will be a man. An ordinary man. There is no need to give him deity or to dress him up in wings or have fire shoot from his mouth or anything. Such things are simply not necessary to his mission of ruling during the messianic era.
     
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  9. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    No, it doesn't
     
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  10. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    The servant is Israel, as represented by the remnant.

    The job of the messiah is to rule during the messianic era, and nothing else.
     
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  11. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    It would be impossible for the Messiah to be God and not have a virgin birth. Jesus was born of a virgin because He is God incarnate. God does all things decently and in order.
     
  12. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The kingdom of God has both a present and future component. Jesus inaugurates the kingdom at His first coming, but His initial reign is mostly spiritual. His future kingdom will arrive with His Second Coming when He will reign over all creation.
     
  13. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The Old Testament prophets didn't predict that the Messiah would suffer and die. Yet, Isaiah 53 and other passages foretold a suffering servant. It was completely hidden from the disciples that the Son of Man must fill the role of the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 before he comes in the power and glory of God's kingdom. In other words, the Old Testament predicted a Messiah and a suffering servant, but not that the Messiah would be the Suffering Servant.
     
  14. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Without the future component, is he still the Messiah?
     
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  15. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Are you asking if there's a difference between Messiah and Savior titles?
     
  16. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    No, I'm curious about the future component of the Kingdom of God. Is the future component required for Jesus to fulfill messianic prophecy?
     
  17. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Every eye will see him and know who he is when he returns.
     
  18. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Whether you think original sin is supported or not is immaterial. Judaism doesn't and it was being misrepresented by someone you decided to rely on. And maybe your heart is twisted, but I'd like to think mine isn't (and as none of the verses you quoted says that it is, there you have it).
     
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  19. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    If all of creation was affected when Adam and Eve sinned, wouldn't that mean also that our hearts were affected too?
     
  20. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Sure, but does affected mean "twisted"? I don't say that and you have nothing that supports that.
     
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