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Featured Is according to Jews everything God's will?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by ayin, Dec 22, 2020.

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  1. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    He is an uneducated source and you are quoting him though he has no knowledge. That's your choice, but you aren't going to convince anyone if your sources are ignorant.
     
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  2. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    You can believe that but that avoids the fact that you made a claim about "forgiveness" and its being absent and I just cited biblical text which shows that you are wrong.
     
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  3. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Jeremiah 17:9 says

     
  4. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Hey look! More unrelated stuff!
     
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  5. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The heart of man is desperately wicked shows that we are not inherently good.
     
  6. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Who says the heart is wicked? The heart is the source of deceit according to the text, but one cannot fool God. Of course, as this entire section is talking about "man" and not "child" -- verses 9 and 7 use the word "gever" which, if you look it up you will see, means "man, strong man, warrior (emphasising strength or ability to fight)".

    It makes no statement about how we are born being deceitful, just that when we are men, the heart is that source. If this is your "source" for a Jewish notion of "original sin" then you are as misled as that joelr guy about Judaism
     
  7. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Man is an umbrella term that refers to men and women, and humanity in general.
     
  8. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    He can't. In the thread where he claimed that (עלמה) means "virgin" and the masculine form (עלם) means "virgin" he admitted that he didn't know Hebrew and he provided links that even contradicted what he claimed.

    That is why he won't agree to do a Zoom where only the Hebrew Tanakh is used. I think he trying to pull a jedi mind trick and waste everyone's time.

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The idea of the Messiah being a Savior is consistent with even the most fair judge has to be righteous and punish sin. God became the Messiah as the deepest expression of love for his creation. There is no person good enough for heaven. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Romans 3:10

    If a person could be good enough to make it to heaven on their own merit, why did God the Father, the creator of all there is on heaven and on earth, permit his own innocent son Jesus to be falsely accused, shamefully and painfully mistreated, and nailed to a Roman cross to die? He suffered and died because death and eternal separation from him, is the consequences for sin.
     
  10. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    I believe that it's impossible to determine exactly what the prophecy in Isaiah 7:14 meant to the original hearers when it was delivered. The background of that verse is that the people of Judah were being threatened by the Israelites in the north, who were joined by the Arameans. Their intent was to seize Jerusalem and remove the reigning king, Ahaz, who was from the line of David. This was a frontal attack on the dynasty from which the Messiah would come. Unfortunately, Ahaz was a faithless ruler. The Lord sent the prophet Isaiah to reassure him that his enemies would be defeated if he would trust in God alone. He refused to stand firm in his faith. Isaiah told him to ask God for a sign to assure him, but Ahaz didn't. So God unilaterally provides him a sign: the 'almah will give birth to a son and he will be called Immanuel. And incidentally, Ahaz was being addressed not simply as the king but as a representative of the house of David, and in two verses he was referred to in the plural, so Ahaz was not being addressed alone.
     
  11. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    According to Isaiah 49:1-7, the servant appears to have failed in his mission and God says don't be discouraged, because not only have I chosen you to regather Israel, but also to be a light to the nations. Who does that sound like? Apparently failed in his mission to Israel, yet becomes a light to the nations, and we will know then the final fulfillment, restoring Israel to God. in the 50th chapter, there is a very specific word about the servant of the lord suffering terrible. It's speaking of an individual. Israel is referred to as a servant in Isaiah 41, but there is one referred to as a righteous one. In the 49th and 50th chapter, the servant is just an individual. By the time you get to 52:13 through 53:12, just an individual. Some have looked at it as kind of like a pyramid, starting with the base of the nation and going up to the point that one individual-the Messiah. So when we look at the text in context, what we see is that the servant of the Lord, sometimes can refer to the nation or a righteous remnant within the nation-but ultimately the righteous remnant of one-the Messiah-the redeemer. He's the one who suffers and dies for our sins according to Isaiah chapter 53.
     
  12. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    There is no prophecy that the messiah is perfect. In the Bethlehem prophecy, Bethlehem simply represents the fact that the Messiah is born of the line of David, not that he is literally born in the city of Bethlehem. Being born in the city of Bethlehem wouldn't be much of a prophecy, as there are literally millions of people who have been born there.
     
  13. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    It's the combination of that and the Old Testament saying that the Messiah would be a perfect sacrifice. Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Yeshua

     
  14. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Just TRY reading it with a different mind set. PRETEND for five minutes that the remnant of Israel is the suffering servant, addressed in the singular (as it is many times) which suffers for all of Israel. Vicarious suffering -- look that up.
     
  15. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was both born of the line of David and literally in the city of Bethlehem.
     
  16. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The Messiah in Isaiah 53 resurrecting by prolonging his days matches what Jewish writings talk about. I don't agree with the Jewish belief of two messiahs, but it's based off of finding a replacement for Jesus-and thus it has roots in the second coming of Jesus. I believe that everyone has the same desire to know Christ but some people suppress it. Do Jewish People Expect Messiah to Resurrect? | Messianic Bible



     
  17. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I already replied that the Messiah need not be born in Bethlehem, that the prophecy is rather that he be born of David's line (through his bio dad).

    Sin offerings don't need to be blood to atone. Poor people who don't have the money to bring an animal, can make a grain offering for atonement. Also, sin offerings are only for unintentional sins. You can't atone for an intentional sin via blood offering or anything else--you can only repent from them.
     
  18. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    When Jesus returns, there will be 1000 years of peace, and all of Israel will be regathered. He will rule the kingdoms of the world righteously from Jerusalem. There are Jewish writings that hint about the two functions of the Messiah. Do Jewish People Expect Messiah to Resurrect? | Messianic Bible

     
  19. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Again, it is irrelevant that he was born in Bethlehem.

    He cannot have been born of the line of David unless you can show me his BIO dad, and that bio dad's lineage. Who was his bio dad?
     
  20. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't mean that the Messiah won't be born in Bethlehem. Joseph was a descendant of Solomon and the virgin Mary was a descendant of Nathan.
     
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