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Featured Is according to Jews everything God's will?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by ayin, Dec 22, 2020.

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  1. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    It demonstrates forgiveness and the removal of sin. There's a difference between forgiveness and atonement.
     
  2. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    What did I misrepresent? I apologize if I did.
     
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  3. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    It's not you, it's the Christian websites on which you rely to make your points. I'm not saying every single Christian argument misrepresents Jewish Scriptures, but many arguments are juvenile, ill-thought out and just plain bad. However, the longer, better ones are not generally employed on such places as RF and unfortunately generally not by Christians on RF in debate. They're very long and need to take into account things like culture, wordplay, knowledge of Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek etc. The Church Fathers often went to the Jewish scholars to educate them on the Scripture, the language, the culture etc.

    Unfortunately, this happens rarely on RF.
     
  4. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    I defer to the words in the text.
     
  5. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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    Hey @Skywalker, did Jesus's death atone for all types of sins?
     
  6. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Forgiveness and atonement are different. I can forgive someone who wronged me but I cannot atone for their sins.
     
  7. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    1 John 2:2 says

     
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  8. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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    Thank you, so that's another difference between Jesus and animal sacrifices. Jesus atones for everything while animal sacrifices atone only for accidental sins.

    Are you sure you want to keep comparing the two?
     
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  9. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    That supports that the animal sacrifices were foreshadowing of Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of the world.
     
  10. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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    How so, if they're incomparable?
     
  11. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was the one time sacrifice for all sins.
     
  12. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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    What does that have to do with my question?
     
  13. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    I find it difficult to discuss this idea with you as you are unfamiliar with the Hebrew root at play here. You say that the word k-ph-r is the word for atonement, but that atonement is different from "removal" as if there is some alternate concept in the bible of "removal of sin" which isn't accomplished by "only" atoning. Part of this might come from your idea of original sin which is a stain on humankind which cannot be removed. Jews simply don't see sin that way, so we don't see "atonement" as deficient in any way. You are starting with an idea that what is in the text doesn't match up to what is in your text. We reject your text and see the language in the original. K-ph-r is a root that means a variety of things including "to cover with pitch" because the noun for "pitch" is built on the same k-ph-r letters, though they are not of the same root.

    Separate from that, the root relates to expiating and obliterating (as explained in Klein's Etymological Dictionary):

    "Some scholars connect כפר ᴵ with Akka. kapāru, kuppuru (= to wipe off; to expiate), Aram.-Syr. כְּפַר (= he washed away, wiped off). However, as shown by the Aram. verbs כְּפַר and כַּפֵּר, the meanings ‘to wash away, wipe off, cover, expiate’, are interrelated, and, accordingly, all the above words are etymologically connected. For sense development cp. Arab. ghafara (= he covered, he forgave), ‘afa (= he covered, he wiped out, he forgave)."

    So relying on "atone" as if that stands by itself as an incomplete removal is ignoring the actual meaning and use of the Hebrew word and attaching baggage to the English word that translators have chosen to use.
     
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  14. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    another note -- you might want to look up Lev 4:20 for an explicit statement that has a different word in relation to sacrifices. Of course, this same verb for forgiveness is used by God when there is no sacrifice at all in Num 14:20. So maybe the proof is that no sacrifice is required for forgiveness.
     
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  15. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Even unbelievers believe that original sin is mentioned in the Old Testament. Why Didn't God Leave Huge Quantities of Secular Evidence For Jesus?

     
  16. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    That shows that the Old Testament sacrifices foreshadowed the coming Messiah. Why did God require animal sacrifices in the Old Testament? | GotQuestions.org

     
  17. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Good thing I'm not an unbeliever. I just believe in something different. But why do you get your ideas of Judaism from unattributed statements by some guy named "joelr" who doesn't say he is Jewish or have any special insight in to Judaism. His statement is a clear misunderstanding of Jewish theology and you are buying into it.
     
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  18. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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  19. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    He read the Old Testament and came to the conclusion that original sin is taught there. He isn't a believer in Christ, and thus it is highly unlikely that he could be a biased source about Judaism.
     
  20. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    I believe that types and shadows existed in the Old Testament, because when you read the Bible over and over again you notice things that you didn't notice before.
     
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