Is according to Jews everything God's will?

[rosends]

They are related because Jesus was pierced when he died on the cross.

but there is nothing in the Jewish bible that has to do with piercing anyone so it is irrelevant. There is nothing about Jesus, so it is irrelevant.

A point for you to consider -- Isaiah 53 is not saying what God says about anyone. It is the report of foreign kings. So you are relying on THEIR understanding of things?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Let's see...

An animal must be without blemish or injury - Jesus was pierced and beaten.
The sacrifice must be upon the altar - Jesus died on a cross somewhere far away from the Temple Mount.
The sacrifice must be made by priests descendants of Aharon - Jesus was killed by Roman soldiers.

So no, not types or shadows of Jesus...

You forgot the most important point. The only sources for any of this happening are the NT gospel authors - and we all know that they can be trusted.

 

[Skywalker]

So, you agree that the NT authors were incorrect when they stated that the Romans executed Jesus using a typical Roman execuation method. I am glad we have cleared that up.

The Romans executed Jesus using a typical Roman execution method but Pilate and his wife wanted to spare Jesus-the priests wanted to kill Jesus. John 19:7

The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

People use the Jewish leaders having a part in the death of Jesus to justify anti-semetism, but people of all ethnic groups makes mistakes, and the Italian soldiers were the ones who killed Jesus. Also, whenever people sin, they kill Jesus.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The Hebrew text of that verse has the same meaning.

Isaiah 53:3 Hebrew Text Analysis

If you beleive that then let's do a Zoom where you prove it by starting at Yeshayahu 1 through to 66 using only a Hebrew text w/o translation. If you don't know how to read Hebrew, then you don't know what the Hebrew text states.

 

[Skywalker]

You forgot the most important point. The only sources for any of this happening are the NT gospel authors - and we all know that they can be trusted.

Both the Old and New Testament use typologies. What is biblical typology? | GotQuestions.org

Question: "What is biblical typology?"

Answer: Typology is a special kind of symbolism. (A symbol is something that represents something else.) We can define a type as a “prophetic symbol” because all types are representations of something yet future. More specifically, a type in Scripture is a person or thing in the Old Testament that foreshadows a person or thing in the New Testament. For example, the flood of Noah’s day (Genesis 6—7) is used as a type of baptism in 1 Peter 3:20–21. The word for “type” that Peter uses is figure.

When we say that someone is a type of Christ, we are saying that a person in the Old Testament behaves in a way that corresponds to Jesus’ character or actions in the New Testament. When we say that something is “typical” of Christ, we are saying that an object or event in the Old Testament can be viewed as representative of some quality of Jesus.

Scripture itself identifies several Old Testament events as types of Christ’s redemption, including the tabernacle, the sacrificial system, and the Passover. The Old Testament tabernacle is identified as a type in Hebrews 9:8-9: “the first tabernacle . . . which was a figure for the time then present.” The high priest’s entrance into the holiest place once a year prefigured the mediation of Christ, our High Priest. Later, the veil of the tabernacle is said to be a type of Christ (Hebrews 10:19-20) in that His flesh was torn, (as the veil was when He was crucified) in order to provide entrance into God’s presence for those who are covered by His sacrifice.

The whole sacrificial system is seen as a type in Hebrews 9:19-26. The articles of the “first testament” were dedicated with the blood of sacrifice; these articles are called “the patterns of things in the heavens” and “figures of the true” (verses 23-24). This passage teaches that the Old Testament sacrifices typify Christ’s final sacrifice for the sins of the world. The Passover is also a type of Christ, according to 1 Corinthians 5:7, “Christ our passover is sacrificed for us.” Discovering exactly what the events of the Passover teach us about Christ is a rich and rewarding study.

We should point out the difference between an illustration and a type. A type is always identified as such in the New Testament. A Bible student finding correlations between an Old Testament story and the life of Christ is simply finding illustrations, not types. In other words, typology is determined by Scripture. The Holy Spirit inspired the use of types; illustrations and analogies are the result of man’s study. For example, many people see parallels between Joseph (Genesis 37-45) and Jesus. The humiliation and subsequent glorification of Joseph seem to correspond to the death and resurrection of Christ. However, the New Testament never uses Joseph as a model of Christ; therefore, Joseph’s story is properly called an illustration, but not a type, of Christ.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The Romans executed Jesus using a typical Roman execution method but Pilate and his wife wanted to spare Jesus-the priests wanted to kill Jesus. John 19:7

Can you provide an account from Pilate that this happened?

People use the Jewish leaders having a part in the death of Jesus to justify anti-semetism, but people of all ethnic groups makes mistakes, and the Italian soldiers were the ones who killed Jesus. Also, whenever people sin, they kill Jesus.

So, then you agree that you are contradicting what you stated earlier. I am glad we have cleared that one up.

 

[Harel13]

Jesus was put to death by Jewish priests.

Matthew disagrees with you, mate:

"Then the governor’s soldiers took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole company of soldiers around him. 28 They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, 29 and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head. They put a staff in his right hand. Then they knelt in front of him and mocked him. “Hail, king of the Jews!” they said. 30 They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again. 31 After they had mocked him, they took off the robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him away to crucify him.​

32 As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, and they forced him to carry the cross. 33 They came to a place called Golgotha (which means “the place of the skull”). 34 There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it. 35 When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots. 36 And sitting down, they kept watch over him there. 37 Above his head they placed the written charge against him: this is jesus, the king of the jews." (Matthew 27:27-37)​

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Both the Old and New Testament use typologies. What is biblical typology? | GotQuestions.org

Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews don't have "testaments" old or new. Your use of links rather than showing your ability to read a Hebrew text doesn't help your position. You really don't want to prove this, do you?

 

[Skywalker]

If you beleive that then let's do a Zoom where you prove it by starting at Yeshayahu 1 through to 66 using only a Hebrew text w/o translation. If you don't know how to read Hebrew, then you don't know what the Hebrew text states.

Jesus was despised and he was not esteemed.

 

[Harel13]

The Romans executed Jesus using a typical Roman execution method but Pilate and his wife wanted to spare Jesus-the priests wanted to kill Jesus. John 19:7



People use the Jewish leaders having a part in the death of Jesus to justify anti-semetism, but people of all ethnic groups makes mistakes, and the Italian soldiers were the ones who killed Jesus. Also, whenever people sin, they kill Jesus.

So in other words, you agree with me that Jesus cannot be compared to sacrifices in the Torah, right?

 

[Skywalker]

Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews don't have "testaments" old or new. Your use of links rather than showing your ability to read a Hebrew text doesn't help your position. You really don't want to prove this, do you?

What difference does the terminology make? Whether I used the Hebrew Bible or the other Old Testament, the verses are very similar. Also, the Old and New Testament are in a sense the same Testament. All 66 books of the Bible have the same message.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Matthew disagrees with you, mate:

"Then the governor’s soldiers took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole company of soldiers around him. 28 They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, 29 and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head. They put a staff in his right hand. Then they knelt in front of him and mocked him. “Hail, king of the Jews!” they said. 30 They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again. 31 After they had mocked him, they took off the robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him away to crucify him.​

32 As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, and they forced him to carry the cross. 33 They came to a place called Golgotha (which means “the place of the skull”). 34 There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it. 35 When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots. 36 And sitting down, they kept watch over him there. 37 Above his head they placed the written charge against him: this is jesus, the king of the jews." (Matthew 27:27-37)​

It's not from matthew. It is from the Gospel of Skywalker.

 

[Skywalker]

So in other words, you agree with me that Jesus cannot be compared to sacrifices in the Torah, right?

Regardless of whether Jesus was put to death by Jewish priests, the concept of the animal sacrifices represented the future sacrifice of the Messiah, because they show that the wages of sin is death.

 

[Harel13]

Regardless of whether Jesus was put to death by Jewish priests, the concept of the animal sacrifices represented the future sacrifice of the Messiah, because they show that the wages of sin is death.

So why would we need a messiah, then? Animals seemed to work perfectly well (certainly they were still working around Jesus's time).

 

[Ehav4Ever]

What difference does the terminology make? Whether I used the Hebrew Bible or the other Old Testament, the verses are very similar. Also, the Old and New Testament are in a sense the same Testament. All 66 books of the Bible have the same message.

Because the text doesn't support your terminology and the your terminology doesn't support your claims about a text you don't have the ability to read and understand for yourself. You could just do a Zoom and prove it within 10 minutes but I am guessing that you are not really serious about your claims and are simply trying to keep those of us who live in Israel awake. Nice try but it won't work on me. I am going to sleep. Let me know if you are interested in doing a Zoom where you show that you can read and understand the Hebrew text of Yeshayahu from chapters 1 to 66.

 

[Skywalker]

but there is nothing in the Jewish bible that has to do with piercing anyone so it is irrelevant. There is nothing about Jesus, so it is irrelevant.

A point for you to consider -- Isaiah 53 is not saying what God says about anyone. It is the report of foreign kings. So you are relying on THEIR understanding of things?

How is this Isaiah 53:3 about foreign kings? It describes Jesus to a T.

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Jesus was rejected by his own and accepted by the Gentiles. Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Yeshua

• 
  

  [*]Rejected by Israel.
  Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
  Isaiah 8:14, And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
  
  Psalm 118:22-23, The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. This is the LORD's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
  
  Isaiah 28:16, Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation...
  
  Br'it Chadashah/New Covenant
  I Corinthians 1:22-24, For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jew a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
  
  Read Jesus' parable of the householder from Matthew 21:33-46:
  
  33. Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
  34. And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
  35. And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
  36. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
  37. But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
  38. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
  39. And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
  40. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
  41. They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
  42. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
  43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
  44. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
  45. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
  46. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.
  See also the parable of the marriage feast found in Matthew 22:1-14.
  
  There are Jews that believe in Jesus as Messiah. However, it is very clear that today, Israel, as a nation, has rejected Christ. At end of this page are links to Christian Jewish Foundation and Jews for Jesus.
  
  
  
  
  [*]The Gentiles believe.
  Tenakh/Hebrew Scripture
  Isaiah 55:5, Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
  
  Malachi 1:11, For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles...for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.
  
  Isaiah 60:3, And the Gentiles shall come to thy light...
  
  Isaiah 65:1, I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.
  
  Psalm 2:8, (speaking of the Son in verse 7) Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost part of the earth for thy possession.
  
  Hosea 2:23, ...I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.
  
  Hosea 1:10, ...and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
  
  Br'it Chadashah/New Covenant
  Galatians 3:13-14, Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is everyone that hangeth on a tree: that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
  
  Acts 28:28, Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

 

[Skywalker]

So why would we need a messiah, then? Animals seemed to work perfectly well (certainly they were still working around Jesus's time).

The animal sacrifices in the Old Testament didn't forgive anyone of sin. Contradictions: Did Animal Sacrifices Remove Sin?

Did Animal Sacrifices Remove Sin?
Leviticus 4:20–35 seem to teach that animal sacrifices can take away sins, while Hebrews 10:4–11 reveal they did not.
by Ron Dudek on June 5, 2012
Leviticus 4:20–35 seem to teach that animal sacrifices can take away sins, while Hebrews 10:4–11 reveal they did not. Ron Dudek explains.

The “Problem”
The book of Leviticus discusses many of the sacrifices performed by the Levitical priests. In some places, it seems to claim that a particular offering could remove sins.



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And he shall do with the bull as he did with the bull as a sin offering; thus he shall do with it. So the priest shall make atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them. (Leviticus 4:20)

Yet the book of Hebrews explicitly states that animal blood could not take away sins.

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. (Hebrews 10:4)

 

[Skywalker]

Because the text doesn't support your terminology and the your terminology doesn't support your claims about a text you don't have the ability to read and understand for yourself. You could just do a Zoom and prove it within 10 minutes but I am guessing that you are not really serious about your claims and are simply trying to keep those of us who live in Israel awake. Nice try but it won't work on me. I am going to sleep. Let me know if you are interested in doing a Zoom where you show that you can read and understand the Hebrew text of Yeshayahu from chapters 1 to 66.

Israel is not the suffering servant because Israel did not suffer vicariously. Isaiah 53:3-5 “…But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities”

Isaiah 53:3-5

He was despised and rejected by mankind,

a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.

Like one from whom people hide their faces

he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.


Surely he took up our pain

and bore our suffering,

yet we considered him punished by God,

stricken by him, and afflicted.


But he was pierced for our transgressions,

he was crushed for our iniquities;

the punishment that brought us peace was on him,

and by his wounds we are healed.

 

[Harel13]

The animal sacrifices in the Old Testament didn't forgive anyone of sin. Contradictions: Did Animal Sacrifices Remove Sin?

You're quoting to me Hebrews to explain the Torah. Life doesn't work like that. I quote the NT to you because you believe it's true. I don't believe it's true, therefore, contradictions between the Torah and the NT are meaningless to me.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Jesus was despised and he was not esteemed.

So, let's do a Zoom where you prove, from a Hebrew text w/o translation, why any Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jew should even consider the NT account relevant.

Just to let you know, the NT authors claim that Jesus didn't want to be esteemed and he didn't want anyone to beleive he was a Davidic king. According to the NT authors Jesus did a lot to try to convince people he was not and won't be Davidic king. That is probably why he didn't write his own gospel.

Besides, there isn't even any real evidence that anyone like the NT Jesus existed.