Is according to Jews everything God's will?

[rosends]

This is an example of appeal to tradition. The New and Old Testament teaches the second coming of the Messiah. Judaism teaches that either there will be two Messiahs, or the Messiah will fulfill all the prophecies in one coming. That sounds more like the beliefs of tradition than the one belief of the Bible. Did Jesus Fulfill the Messianic Prophecies in the Old Testament? | Jewish Voice

See, here's your problem: you decide that something you disagree with is an appeal to tradition, but if you follow what someone tells you, it isn't. Then you make a false claim about Judaism and support it with a non-Jewish website which makes erroneous statements about Judaism. That is a different kind of fallacy -- blind belief and confirmation bias.

When you are ready to stick to one statement, deal with the consequence of being proven wrong, and then try to learn and patch up your staggering lack of actual knowledge, I'll be around to help you out. But as it stands, you spray out falsehoods and mistakes, you mislabel things and ignore how what you say applies to your own position, and then you run away to a new topic every time you are challenged. It just doesn't seem fruitful.

 

[Skywalker]

See, here's your problem: you decide that something you disagree with is an appeal to tradition, but if you follow what someone tells you, it isn't. Then you make a false claim about Judaism and support it with a non-Jewish website which makes erroneous statements about Judaism. That is a different kind of fallacy -- blind belief and confirmation bias.

When you are ready to stick to one statement, deal with the consequence of being proven wrong, and then try to learn and patch up your staggering lack of actual knowledge, I'll be around to help you out. But as it stands, you spray out falsehoods and mistakes, you mislabel things and ignore how what you say applies to your own position, and then you run away to a new topic every time you are challenged. It just doesn't seem fruitful.

One could say that beliefs about there being two comings of the Messiah are confirmation bias.

 

[rosends]

One could say that beliefs about there being two comings of the Messiah are confirmation bias.

yes, that's exactly what I would say. Though to put it more exactly, finding support for the idea of 2 comings after Jesus died was only made possible through confirmation bias.

 

[Skywalker]

See, here's your problem: you decide that something you disagree with is an appeal to tradition, but if you follow what someone tells you, it isn't. Then you make a false claim about Judaism and support it with a non-Jewish website which makes erroneous statements about Judaism. That is a different kind of fallacy -- blind belief and confirmation bias.

When you are ready to stick to one statement, deal with the consequence of being proven wrong, and then try to learn and patch up your staggering lack of actual knowledge, I'll be around to help you out. But as it stands, you spray out falsehoods and mistakes, you mislabel things and ignore how what you say applies to your own position, and then you run away to a new topic every time you are challenged. It just doesn't seem fruitful.

This an example of appeal to tradition. The Jewish People Rejected Jesus as Their Messiah | Jewish Voice

The Jewish People Rejected Jesus as Their Messiah


For almost 2,000 years, both Judaism and Christianity have promulgated the lie that the Jewish People rejected Jesus as their Messiah. Messianic Rabbi Jonathan Bernis often tells about his upbringing in a Jewish home.

I was raised as a child in a Jewish home with the understanding that I was born a Jew, that I was to die a Jew, and anyone who wasn’t Jewish was a Christian or a Gentile. I also understood that Jewish identity meant one thing: Jews don’t believe in Jesus.

Rabbi Bernis goes on to say,
But that is a lie—the Jews have not rejected Jesus. The entire New Testament story took place in the Land of Israel— the Land of the Jews. Jesus was a Jew. He declared Himself the Messiah of Israel. All of His followers were Jews. The disciples were all Jews, as were the 120 in the Upper Room. The 3,000 that came to faith on the Jewish holiday of Shavuot, or Pentecost, “grew to about 5,000,” according to Acts 4:4. So there is a record of thousands of Jewish Believers in the promised Messiah of Israel, and they took the Gospel around the world.

The Bible attests to what some refer to as a Jewish Christianity in which Jewish People believe in Yeshua (Jesus) as the promised Messiah of the Hebrew Scriptures.

 

[Skywalker]

yes, that's exactly what I would say. Though to put it more exactly, finding support for the idea of 2 comings after Jesus died was only made possible through confirmation bias.

I believe Judaism has confirmation bias because not only do they find support for their beliefs in the same way Christians do, but to believe that either there are 2 Messiahs, or the second coming was invented to compensate for Jesus not fulfilling prophecies in his first coming, sounds like people are coming up with alternative theories to not accept that God is our Savior.

 

[rosends]

This an example of appeal to tradition. The Jewish People Rejected Jesus as Their Messiah | Jewish Voice

Then your acceptance of the gospel account is similarly an appeal to tradition. You reject what the Jewish texts say and only listen to your private interpretations.

 

[rosends]

I believe Judaism has confirmation bias because not only do they find support for their beliefs in the same way Christians do, but to believe that either there are 2 Messiahs, or the second coming was invented to compensate for Jesus not fulfilling prophecies in his first coming, sounds like people are coming up with alternative theories to not accept that God is our Savior.

No, Jews developed their beliefs through living with the texts. Christians went back to those texts and created new understandings when their belief system came into conflict with the normative understanding. Judaism doesn't believe in a second coming. Creating the idea to explain Jesus' failure and then reworking and cherry picking mistranslations to support this innovation is confirmation bias.

 

[Skywalker]

Then your acceptance of the gospel account is similarly an appeal to tradition. You reject what the Jewish texts say and only listen to your private interpretations.

If I said that Christianity is true because I grew up with that tradition and viewpoint then that would be an appeal to tradition, but I never said that.

 

[rosends]

If I said that Christianity is true because I grew up with that tradition and viewpoint then that would be an appeal to tradition, but I never said that.

No, you said it is true because some guy named Brown taught things that underscore what you believe so you reject anything else.

 

[Skywalker]

No, Jews developed their beliefs through living with the texts. Christians went back to those texts and created new understandings when their belief system came into conflict with the normative understanding. Judaism doesn't believe in a second coming. Creating the idea to explain Jesus' failure and then reworking and cherry picking mistranslations to support this innovation is confirmation bias.

I'll give that the benefit of the doubt, but what about there being the belief that there are two Messiahs?

The text doesn't say two Messiahs or a second coming of the same Messiah, those are both interpretations. For someone to say they grew up with either would be confirmation bias, but to express a belief based on the texts would not be.

 

[Skywalker]

No, you said it is true because some guy named Brown taught things that underscore what you believe so you reject anything else.

I don't agree with everything that Brown teaches. He also believes that spiritual warfare is confronting demons.

 

[rosends]

I'll give that the benefit of the doubt, but what about there being the belief that there are two Messiahs?

The text doesn't say two Messiahs or a second coming of the same Messiah, those are both interpretations. For someone to say they grew up with either would be confirmation bias, but to express a belief based on the texts would not be.

The text doesn't say any messiah will come in the future. Judaism is not a religion limited to the printed text on its own. The entire concept of a future messiah is a Jewish interpretation that Christianity coopted. There are prophecies of a military leader but no one called "the messiah."

But once Christianity appropriates that Jewish interpretation, it changes it.

If you want to read, here is a reasonable discussion of how Judaism sees that there might be more than one leader

Who is the Moshiach ben Yosef?

 

[Skywalker]

The text doesn't say any messiah will come in the future. Judaism is not a religion limited to the printed text on its own. The entire concept of a future messiah is a Jewish interpretation that Christianity coopted. There are prophecies of a military leader but no one called "the messiah."

But once Christianity appropriates that Jewish interpretation, it changes it.

If you want to read, here is a reasonable discussion of how Judaism sees that there might be more than one leader

Who is the Moshiach ben Yosef?

I believe in Yeshua because the textual support for one Messiah having a second coming is more consistent than there being two Messiahs or the Messiah is supposed to fulfill all of the prophecies in one coming.

 

[rosends]

I believe in Yeshua because the textual support for one Messiah having a second coming is more consistent than there being two Messiahs or the Messiah is supposed to fulfill all of the prophecies in one coming.

except that there is no textual support for any named messiah, let alone one coming twice. Any text you cite is the product of selective and confirmation-bias driven private interpretations.

 

[Skywalker]

except that there is no textual support for any named messiah, let alone one coming twice. Any text you cite is the product of selective and confirmation-bias driven private interpretations.

Messianic belief is more simple than all of the different Jewish beliefs about the nature of the Messiah.

 

[rosends]

Messianic belief is more simple than all of the different Jewish beliefs about the nature of the Messiah.

Messianic belief wouldn't exist without all the Jewish beliefs about the nature of the messiah.

 

[Skywalker]

Messianic belief wouldn't exist without all the Jewish beliefs about the nature of the messiah.

Messianic and Jewish beliefs about the Messiah both come from the Tanakh. The difference is the interpretations.

 

[rosends]

Messianic and Jewish beliefs about the Messiah both come from the Tanakh. The difference is the interpretations.

if you didn't have the Jewish understanding of any messiah you wouldn't be able to make any future messianic concept from the text. Show me where the text refers to any future leader as "the messiah."

 

[Skywalker]

if you didn't have the Jewish understanding of any messiah you wouldn't be able to make any future messianic concept from the text. Show me where the text refers to any future leader as "the messiah."

That doesn't mean that the Rabbinic interpretations of the text are the one based in the Scriptures.

 

[rosends]

That doesn't mean that the Rabbinic interpretations of the text are the one based in the Scriptures.

it means that without rabbinic interpretation, you wouldn't have anything.