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Is according to Jews everything God's will?

rosends

Well-Known Member
Psalm 22 isn't a prophecy. It's a prayer of a righteous sufferer who comes to the jaws of death and is miraculously delivered. Yet Jesus said that everything written up to his lifetime finds its full meaning and expression in him. He even applied Psalm 22 to himself on the cross. And in Psalm 22, as a result of the righteous sufferer's deliverance from death, all the ends of the earth will worship God. That's quite a significant deliverance from death. God's intent was not to keep Israel as an isolated nation, but that through Israel the entire world will come to know the one true God. That has always been his heart. We see in the scriptures that this messianic figure will be both priestly and royal-he will deal with sin as well as rule and reign. He will first suffer before he is raised up and exalted; he will both come riding on a donkey meek and lowly, as well as come in clouds of glory. He will first be rejected by his people and will be a light to the nations. He will suffer terribly for our sins as a righteous substitute. The power of his deliverance from death will cause the ends of the earth to worship the one true God. We also see that redemption had to come and there had to be a divine visitation before the second temple was destroyed in AD 70.
That is certainly your belief but parts of it fly in the face of Jewish understanding. If you wish to understand what Judaism believes, and how it contradicts some of your claims, I suggest asking a respectful question in the appropriate thread.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Do you think Jews who mix Jesus with being Jewish converted to other faiths? I think that the difference exists for historical reasons, but in the first century, it was how could you be Gentile and believe in Jesus? The Jewish Christians didn't have a different religion.

I did a video on this topic where I went through all of the Torah/Halakhic issues to your question. It is long, but I provide a lot of details that answer your question. See the video below.

 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
The historical separation between the two beliefs doesn't mean that they aren't practicing Judaism.

Actually, to answer you in a diffeent way. The path that the original Jewish Christians created for themselves was/is not Torath Mosheh. This is by their own admissions, by the admissions of the Church Fathers, and even modern day movements that claim to base themselves off of them. Thus, there aren't any Jesus followers who have ever historically declared themselves to be doing so Torath Mosheh and no one in the New Testament ever claimed to be Judaism.

The practice of all those in the modern day messianic movement, sacred name movement, nazaerite movement, hebrew roots, etc. by their own definition are not based on the Torah/Halakha given at Mount Sinai by Hashem and thus they are not valid as Torath Mosheh or Torah Judaism based. This explains why these movements started in the 1960's with their previous model calling themselves "Hebrew Christians" which started in about the late 1800's and it explains why the Jewish Christian Jesus beleiving element died out two centuries after it started leaving no direct Jewish heirs. I.e. no Jews today claim descent from Jesus or any of his disciples or even any of the people who are actually named in the New Testament.

The Torath Mosheh and Torah based Judaism response is united in one simple truth about this topic. Those who beleive in Jesus, in what ever format, have the freedom to do what ever they want to do - in thier own spaces. Their predecessors of the Jewish Christian/Jesus following persuasion seperated themselves out of the Torath Mosheh communities more than 1,800 years ago for a reason and that is the way they preffered it. By like token, the mitzvoth that Hashem gave to Torath Mosheh Israelis/Jews was to stay away from beleif systems that are found in Jesus based texts and sects/groups.

Things tend to work out way better when we Jews are able to avoid being to closely entrenched in Christian issues (texts, philosophy, etc.). Christians don't need us to accept, respect, acknowledge, or agree with their religious beliefs. We surely don't need Christians to to accept, respect, acknowledge, or agree anything we Torath Mosheh and Torah based Jews do. Thus, we are no threat to the Christian/Jesus centered belief and a healthy distance is the best way to keep it that way.
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
When David killed righteous Uriah, was it God's will? When Israel forsook their God, was it God's will? When a person sins, is it God's will? Is everything God's will, or is there also coincidence?

God mostly allows freewill to be exercised, though He knows things before hand. It is because so that the Jews often speak from the perspective of God's absolute sovereignty. They can thus say that God's hardens David's heart at that moment. Or sometimes they put as God hide His face from David, and David did something evil.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Oh, of course it does. When the rabbis kicked the heretical Christians out of the synagogues, meaning that it was no longer a sect of Judaism, it went on to form a new and distinct religion. Again, the Jewish sect of Jesus believers no longer exists -- it was a heresy that got kicked out forever.

Do you think that was God's will? Just because two beliefs are categorized or even can be distinct religions, doesn't mean that they cant be both of God, because God gave both the Old and New Covenants are from different dispensations. I think the Jewish sect of believers at this dispensation can be God's will if the person chooses the Old and New Covenant with the right intentions.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Of course it does. What do you get when you systemically don't follow the basic principles and tenets of a religion and uphold principles entirely foreign and even heretical to that religion? Answer: A different religion/worldview.

The early Christians followed the principles and tenets of the Old Covenant. Why do you think them believing in Yeshua was not God's will?
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
The early Christians followed the principles and tenets of the Old Covenant. Why do you think them believing in Yeshua was not God's will?
As @rosends wrote, in the end, though we have free will, at the same time, everything is part of God's will. That doesn't mean that what they did was right. It just means that God's will allows for doing bad things (hence, free will).
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
As @rosends wrote, in the end, though we have free will, at the same time, everything is part of God's will. That doesn't mean that what they did was right. It just means that God's will allows for doing bad things (hence, free will).

Does that mean that the concept of a new covenant wasn't mentioned in the Old Testament? In a way I think it was God's will because Jeremiah mentions a New Covenant.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Does that mean that the concept of a new covenant wasn't mentioned in the Old Testament? In a way I think it was God's will because Jeremiah mentions a New Covenant.
Not in the way you think it does, I'm afraid.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Not in the way you think it does, I'm afraid.

What do you think God's will for the New Covenant was? I think many of the traditions of the New Covenant didn't happen according to God's will, but the New Covenant itself was God's will.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
What do you think God's will for the New Covenant was?
It's not a "new" covenant in the way you see it. It'll be a phase in the redemption process that will assist in preserving the one and only covenant within the people of Israel.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
When my kid was little, I tried to get her to clean up her room. I taught her about the importance of cleanliness and even made her sign a contract with me that she would hang up her clean clothes. She often forgot or just didn't make it a priority.

Years later, after she had kids, she came to visit. I chided her and her harried look. "Kids are tough, aren't they?" She agreed. Then I said "I'm happy that you are staying over..." and while I was talking, she started hanging up her clothes. She looked at me and sighed, "Yeah, I get it now."

We had a new agreement, but one that was already built into her thinking. The terms of the agreement were the same, but the nature of the agreement was different.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
It's not a "new" covenant in the way you see it. It'll be a phase in the redemption process that will assist in preserving the one and only covenant within the people of Israel.

What do you think Israel being redeemed from is God's will?
 
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