Is Abstinence From Sex Before Marriage Really Best?

[Mister_T]

I don't see why you should take it personally It wasn't meant to be personal

The "your world" comment threw me.

I also don't recall saying that it is "bad" - I said it "contributes to sexual incompatability". While I do, in fact, believe it is "bad" - that has little to do with this debate.

You didn't have to. Sexual incompatibilty ruining a marriage is bad.

And on the contrary, it has a great deal to do with this debate. You aren't taking the stance you have because you think it's positive. The whole reason we've been having this discussion about porn, is because people feel it is negative. And "negative," last time I checked, equates to bad.

 

[SoyLeche]

The "your world" comment threw me.

You didn't have to. Sexual incompatibilty ruining a marriage is bad.

And on the contrary, it has a great deal to do with this debate. You aren't taking the stance you have because you think it's positive. The whole reason we've been having this discussion about porn, is because people feel it is negative. And "negative," last time I checked, equates to bad.

Actually, we are having this conversation because someone said they needed to have sex before marriage to make sure they and their partner were "sexually compatible". I responded that I don't believe that is a real issue because I believe that "sexual compatablitity" is largely a function of prior sexual experience and pornography*. Then it went from there.

And the effect of pornography on "sexual compatability" isn't always necessarily negative, irrespectigardfully** of how you have read my posts. If pornography has led two people to have similar expectations of sex, it may well improve their "compatability". I still believe the concept of "compatability" is largely caused by outside influences, though, which is the point that I have been trying to get to this whole thread.

*my working definition
**a word my friend made up when he got sick of people saying "irregardless" that I am trying to help him get into common usage

 

[Mister_T]

Actually, we are having this conversation because someone said they needed to have sex before marriage to make sure they and their partner were "sexually compatible". I responded that I don't believe that is a real issue because I believe that "sexual compatablitity" is largely a function of prior sexual experience and pornography*. Then it went from there.

I think we can both agree that the conversation took place.

And the effect of pornography on "sexual compatability" isn't always necessarily negative, irrespectigardfully** of how you have read my posts. If pornography has led two people to have similar expectations of sex, it may well improve their "compatability". I still believe the concept of "compatability" is largely caused by outside influences, though, which is the point that I have been trying to get to this whole thread

And once again, I will say that I repectfully disagree and that I believe that it is the inner-self that is largely responsible.

 

[SoyLeche]

I think we can both agree that the conversation took place.

And once again, I will say that I repectfully disagree and that I believe that it is the inner-self that is largely responsible.

That the inner-self is largely responsible doesn't make it impossible the inner-self was influenced by something outside of the inner-self.

You keep trying to say that I am saying that the person isn't responsible. I am not saying that in the slightest. The individual is most definatly responsible. All I am saying is that there are outside influences on the individual that help them along the path (while not removing responsibility from them in any way).

Perhaps my wording isn't helping. Replace "caused by" with "contribues to" in most of my posts, and that will probably be better

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I won't try and say this is Hema's point - but I see it as being that we need to educate people about the possible connection. It isn't necessary to outlaw sugar, but people with diabetes need to know how sugar can effect them, and the general population needs to know that if they overindulge in sugar they may develop diabetes later in life. Ignoring the connection altogether doesn't help anyone.

Well, then I offer to you an invitation to research the studies done of sociological impacts of free distribution of pornographic material and sex crime rates in countries that have increased their distributions...........and this includes not only soft-core, but hard-core and fetishistic materials, too. Most notably, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, and Japan (who has acted a lot like the U.S. in it's interpretations of obscenity laws).

The statistics support the argument that the increase of distribution of pornographic materials (video, mags, etc.) have actually coincided with a decrease of rates of sex crimes. This includes gang rape AND child sexual abuse.

*sigh*

I never claimed to go along with popular opinion on a lot of things. So, it's kind of expected that I argue against the masses who are screaming : Pornography BAAAAAAD!!




Peace,
Mystic

 

[Mister_T]

That the inner-self is largely responsible doesn't make it impossible the inner-self was influenced by something outside of the inner-self.

You keep trying to say that I am saying that the person isn't responsible. I am not saying that in the slightest. The individual is most definatly responsible. All I am saying is that there are outside influences on the individual that help them along the path (while not removing responsibility from them in any way).

Perhaps my wording isn't helping. Replace "caused by" with "contribues to" in most of my posts, and that will probably be better

I think I understand you right. I don't know. I haven't had my coffee yet.

I don't disagree that an outside infulence can have an effect on a person (in this case, lets say porn). But it could be any outside source that triggers it (like teddy bears). I don't think we can pin down one specific outside source and say that it has a significant impact on "x".

 

[SoyLeche]

I think I understand you right. I don't know. I haven't had my coffee yet.

I don't disagree that an outside infulence can have an effect on a person (in this case, lets say porn). But it could be any outside source that triggers it (like teddy bears). I don't think we can pin down one specific outside source and say that it has a significant impact.

I was just listing triggers that I could think of at the time. The list I have provided doesn't necessarily cover all possible triggers.

What I really want to say is that there are many ways to avoid problems of "sexual incompatability" that do not involve a test drive. Two possibilities being: Don't test drive anyone at all and avoid pornography. That's all.

 

[SoyLeche]

Well, then I offer to you an invitation to research the studies done of sociological impacts of free distribution of pornographic material and sex crime rates in countries that have increased their distributions...........and this includes not only soft-core, but hard-core and fetishistic materials, too. Most notably, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, and Japan (who has acted a lot like the U.S. in it's interpretations of obscenity laws).

The statistics support the argument that the increase of distribution of pornographic materials (video, mags, etc.) have actually coincided with a decrease of rates of sex crimes. This includes gang rape AND child sexual abuse.

*sigh*

I never claimed to go along with popular opinion on a lot of things. So, it's kind of expected that I argue against the masses who are screaming : Pornography BAAAAAAD!!




Peace,
Mystic

Link???

I really would like to look at the studies. How long have they gone on? Is this a short-term effect or long-term? How has family life been effected? Etc?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I was just listing triggers that I could think of at the time. The list I have provided doesn't necessarily cover all possible triggers.

What I really want to say is that there are many ways to avoid problems of "sexual incompatability" that do not involve a test drive. That's all.

Hey! On this note, I agree. :yes:



Peace,
Mystic

 

[Guitar's Cry]

For instance: sex can and often does produce emotional healing.

Sex is also a major drive for rock and roll! :guitar1:

"I used her body just like a bandage,
She used my body just like a wound." - Objects in the Rearview Mirror May Appear Closer Than They Are, Jim Steinman.

 

[Mister_T]

I was just listing triggers that I could think of at the time. The list I have provided doesn't necessarily cover all possible triggers.

What I really want to say is that there are many ways to avoid problems of "sexual incompatability" that do not involve a test drive. Two possibilities being: Don't test drive anyone at all and avoid pornography. That's all.

I can agree with that. It only took us 12 pages to do it.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Link???

I really would like to look at the studies. How long have they gone on? Is this a short-term effect or long-term? How has family life been effected? Etc?

Quick search on Google:

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cach...nmark+sex+crime+rate&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/online_artcls/pornography/prngrphy_rape_jp.html

(This following link has a PDF document on it's findings, but actually summarizes that a link between sex crimes and pornography visibility is, at best, ambiguous)
http://www.leaonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1207/s15324834basp1804_4

I concede that I do not know of any particular studies on pornography's affect on families. But, since all I have is personal experience, I'm currently going by that and saying that porn has not had any negative affect on our marriage.



Peace,
Mystic

 

[Dr. Nosophoros]

If all abstained from sex until in a commited relationship, all of the masturabatory fantasies of the two involved would come to fruition when they give themselves totally to their chosen mate. No sex before marriage does not mean they didn't think about it , it's natural to do so. Maybe it is best to save oneself for marriage for the passion and submission could result in better sex for both if they are willing to be honest and share with their mate their deepest needs and fantasies, and that is exactly what you should be able to do woith your chosen mate isn't it? who else can you trust? Give in, give up and relax, it's just sex, enjoy it.

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

Is abstinence from sex before marriage really best? It seems to me there can be many benefits to sex, although we as a society tend to focus only on the negatives for the most part. Has this tendency to focus only on the negatives given us a false sense that the posititves are not that important? For instance: sex can and often does produce emotional healing. Does our tendency to discount such posititive aspects of sexuality lead us to adopt superficial notions such that abstinence is always the best course of action? Or, is it really true that abstinence is always the best course of action? What do you think?

One word: experience. There's just no substitute for it. I love, care for, cherish, etc. my partner is simply not gonna cut it.

Without going into detail, I can say matter of factly that I've learned things that I'm glad I didn't find out on my wedding night, things that would have been dreadful to find out at that point in the game. And I think a lot of others can say the same, despite the myth that religious conservatism continues to sell us.

There's also a very sexist undertone to virginity as well--girls who "lose their virginity" are commonly considered to be substantially more immoral than boys who do the same ("boys will be boys" crap). Please, I thought we were in the 21st century? :sarcastic

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

People say a lot that if you have sex before your married it will ruin your relationship, but that's really a subjective statement and I wish people would treat it that way instead of believing that's the way it works for everyone. You have to be able to treat sex maturely, and do it for the right reasons. Within a serious relationship it really does help to know whether or not you are sexually compatible with a person before you commit yourself to spending your life with them. Yes, you can learn to like the same things, but I think it's less psychologically traumatic to have bad sex outside of marriage. At least then you can practice a little before you're really under the stress of having to please your new spouse. If you have no clue what you're doing, depending on marriage expectations, in the bedroom you could be setting yourself up for a huge disappointment.

Damn straight.

It takes too much work. I’d have to a) have her test for various STD’s b) just trust her c) protect myself with a space suite and have at it. I’m not willing to put so much work into it unless she’s going to stick around and develop a committed relationship. So why not get married? As I see marriage, it makes no sense. People are born from sex, people die from sex (STD's). If I get a powerful gift for Christmas, say a car, there are rules that keep me safe. I think it is the same with sexuality. But that’s just me and my faith that sees the human body as something very special.

Truly, I can’t see how anyone calling himself a Christian can justify sex before marriage. (Mt: 15:19, Mk 7:21, Acts 15:20, 29, 21:25, 1 Cor 6:13, 18, Gal 5:19, Eph 5:3, Col 3:5, 1 Thes 4:3, Rev 2:14, 20-21, 9:21 etc...)

Fornication: Voluntary sexual intercourse other than between a married couple, especially where either person or both persons are unmarried. (Gage Dictionary)

That’s my two cents.

Doesn't it seem as if this puts virginity on some kind of pedestal?

I would have preferred to wait until marriage to have sex, but I was raped at a young age and that choice was taken from me. I do think that waiting is best, but I am in the minority among my peers.

You know what, eve, if you've never consented to having sex, I still consider you to be a virgin.

No thanks. Apparently, everything can be ok, but if they aren't good at sex, you're screwed. Some of us, can see beyond just the sex and do just fine. I guess some people can't do this.

Unfortunately, sex is one of the most important factors in an intimate relationship. As it goes, so can the relationship, for better or for worse.

Well, then I offer to you an invitation to research the studies done of sociological impacts of free distribution of pornographic material and sex crime rates in countries that have increased their distributions...........and this includes not only soft-core, but hard-core and fetishistic materials, too. Most notably, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, and Japan (who has acted a lot like the U.S. in it's interpretations of obscenity laws).

The statistics support the argument that the increase of distribution of pornographic materials (video, mags, etc.) have actually coincided with a decrease of rates of sex crimes. This includes gang rape AND child sexual abuse.

*sigh*

I never claimed to go along with popular opinion on a lot of things. So, it's kind of expected that I argue against the masses who are screaming : Pornography BAAAAAAD!!




Peace,
Mystic

OOH! You got links to these sources?

 

[Quiddity]

Doesn't it seem as if this puts virginity on some kind of pedestal?

Perhaps not to you, but to each his own.

Unfortunately, sex is one of the most important factors in an intimate relationship. As it goes, so can the relationship, for better or for worse.

The most important? Well perhaps to you, but I'd be quite happy with or without it. Whatever happened to quality, character, chemistry, being the important things?

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

The most important? Well perhaps to you, but I'd be quite happy with or without it. Whatever happened to quality, character, chemistry, being the important things?

Saying sex is one of the most important things is not saying it is the most important thing. Its rare that someone actually has an attitude like that, and even if they did, whose to judge?

Also, those important things you mentioned are usually alive and well in fulfilling sexual relationships. If they're not present then sex would be greatly diminished or unrealised in its potential.

They can and usually do connect up in some way. For many people lack of sexual activity can be linked with a lack of those other important things you mentioned, either because it can stifle intimacy, expression and affection to begin with or because intimacy, expression and affection are already lacking so much that sex feels empty and desire for it wanes.

 

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

Scarlett beat me to it.

 

[Ðanisty]

There lies the crux of the whole thing. Most people can't control themselves.

So if people can't control themselves, who should control people? Surely you see the flaw with this.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

OOH! You got links to these sources?

See post #132.



Peace,
Mystic