Is Abstinence From Sex Before Marriage Really Best?

[Mister_T]

The reverse of what?

The reverse= Marriages that aren't ruined by sexual incompatability.

 

[Mister_T]

There are addictions. No we can't be made to do anything, but addictions are extremeley hard to break and the porn/adult industry knows that.

And there is help available to overcome those addictions. It's up to you whether or not you choose to get it.

 

[SoyLeche]

So we should all just live in a white room with nothing and be sheltered our whole lives then so nothing has an impact on us.

Again, the object gets the blame and the reponsibilty, and not the individual. We all possess free will. Nothing makes us do anything.

No - and I've never said we should. I just want us to look beyond the obvious, because the obvious is very likely wrong. It is too easy to just say "we are incompatible" and leave it at that. It would be more useful to ask why we are "incompatible":

- The parts have been designed to fit right, so that probably isn't too big of an issue
- We are pretty sure we like sex in general
- Maybe we just have different expectations. Okay - why?
- I've had sex before and we did it differently
- I saw a movie where they did somethings I want to try
- The guys in the locker room have talked, and I've gotten some ideas from them
- etc

The problem may be differing expectations, and that wasn't "caused" by pornography, but pornography helped it along. Maybe the differing expectations could be more easily worked through without the explicit image of what you want in your mind, for example.

 

[SoyLeche]

If your marriage is "ruined" from porn it goes deeper than weak minds.

The same can be said for marriages that are "ruined" by "sexual incompatability".

Okay, so I am saying here that if a marriage is "ruined" by "sexual incompatability" it goes deeper than weak minds (or the point I was really going for, deeper than "sexual incompatability")

Okay - so you are saying the reverse can be said - that marriages that aren't ruined by "sexual incompatability" go deeper. I guess I can agree with that. I would think that one almost goes without saying though. And, it kinda reinforces my point that "sexual incompatability" isn't something that would ruin a marriage by itself.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

So we should all just live in a white room with nothing and be sheltered our whole lives then so nothing has an impact on us.

Again, the object gets the blame and the reponsibilty, and not the individual. We all possess free will. Nothing makes us do anything.

No, I am not arguing that we should completely sterilize our lives. After a complete sterilization process, we would still be mortal and die.

However, we can remove from our lives that which causes the most danger and train ourselves to make the best choices.

If porn is shown to be only destructive, like a nuclear weapon, it should be eliminated from our lives.

 

[Quiddity]

But Victor, is that porn's fault that marriages are hurt? Or is it the individuals?

The same point made by AE can be made here. He said,
True, but if the gun did not exist, the psyho could not have pulled the trigger.

The individual should be held responsible, but eliminating the "thing" (could be guns, drugs, or some other mind altering item) that influences or directly causes harm is something we currently do already.

People let porn ruin their marriage and then society blames it on porn instead of the individual.

Do we blame it on cocaine when we make it illegal? Both alter the mind. One just gives you immediate results, while the other is more on a pychological level.

There's all kinds of things out there that can have a negetive impact on your life. Sheltering yourself from these all these things will not make them, or your problem (not you specifically) go away.

Of course not, just like consuming alcohol won't make someone's problems go away.

You control on what has an impact on you and what doesn't. There is a verse from Paul that says soemthing like" do not let yourself be mastered by anything." The problem is the "you" not the "porn."

Actually both.....but I already know we disagree on the word "fornication". It's for good reason the Bible was strict about sexuality and all it's dealings.

But with that line of argument, you may just blame yourself for something stupid you may do when you get drunk. Sure it was YOU that did and should be held responsible, but to say alcohol didn't play a role in your behaivor would be stretching it, don't you think?

Anyways we should really get back on topic since this thread is not about porn.

You're right.

 

[Quiddity]

However, we can remove from our lives that which causes the most danger and train ourselves to make the best choices.

If porn is shown to be only destructive, like a nuclear weapon, it should be eliminated from our lives.

Couldn't have said it better. Must spread karma.....I owe you.

 

[Mister_T]

No, I am not arguing that we should completely sterilize our lives. After a complete sterilization process, we would still be mortal and die.

However, we can remove from our lives that which causes the most danger and train ourselves to make the best choices.

If porn is shown to be only destructive, like a nuclear weapon, it should be eliminated from our lives.

Guns and nuclear weapons are bad cause they hurt people.

And porn/premarital sex, has yet to proven as only destructive and put us in danger. what's good for some is not good for other and vice versa. Porn and premarital sex being bad and "hurting" people, is relative and usually is only labeled bad by organized religion.

 

[Quiddity]

Guns and nuclear weapons are bad cause they hurt people.

And porn/premarital sex, has yet to proven as only destructive and put us in danger. what's good for some is not good for other and vice versa. Porn and premarital sex being bad and "hurting" people, is relative and usually is only labeled bad by organized religion.

Not sure what organized religion has to do with this, but oh well.

Mister_T, would proof really make a difference to you? Since you seem to react just fine to it, why would it matter?

 

[Mister_T]

The individual should be held responsible, but eliminating the "thing" (could be guns, drugs, or some other mind altering item) that influences or directly causes harm is something we currently do already.

That we do. People can't just go out and buy a gun any more. But If they're so bad, why not make the "thing" completely illegal?

But with that line of argument, you may just blame yourself for something stupid you may do when you get drunk. Sure it was YOU that did and should be held responsible, but to say alcohol didn't play a role in your behaivor would be stretching it, don't you think?

So ban alchohol so that never happens again. Who cares if it's not harmful to milions of people. People get hurt by it so it should be completly outlawed. That'll fix it right?

You let alchohol rule you. You bought the drinks. You drank them. Nobody put a gun to your head. You are responsible. Not alcohol.

 

[Hema]

Guns and nuclear weapons are bad cause they hurt people.

And porn/premarital sex, has yet to proven as only destructive and put us in danger. what's good for some is not good for other and vice versa. Porn and premarital sex being bad and "hurting" people, is relative and usually is only labeled bad by organized religion.

Hi Mister_T. I respectfully disagree. Actually, Ted Bundy who raped and killed 50 women and girls said that porn shaped his behaviour. In his earlier life he actually belonged to a crime prevention committee and even wrote a pamphlet instructing women about rape prevention. He started off with soft porn and gradually wanted more and more hard-core stuff.

This is taken from: http://forerunner.com/forerunner/X0332_Ted_Bundy.html

"Bundy's last words of confession and warning about pornography are an echo of statistics, research, and reports conducted within the last decade about the link between pornography and sexually violent crime. Unfortunately, many of the warnings in those reports still have not been heeded, and pornography has been taken for granted or considered a necessary evil.
According to a study conducted by a group of psychologists, Neil Malamuth of UCLA, Gene Abel of Columbia University, and William Marshall of Kingston Penitentiary, various forms of pornography can elicit fantasies which may lead to crime. Out of a test group of 18 rapists studied who used 'consenting pornography' to instigate a sexual offence, seven of them said that it provided a cue to elicit fantasies of forced sex.
A study released by the University of New Hampshire has proven that the states which have the highest readership of pornographic magazines such as Playboy and Penthouse also have the highest rape rates. The Michigan State Police department found that pornography is used or imitated in 41 percent of the sex crimes they have investigated.
The Free Congress Research and Education Foundation discovered that half of all rapists studied used soft core pornography to arouse themselves prior to seeking out a victim."

 

[Mister_T]

Not sure what organized religion has to do with this, but oh well.

Mister_T, would proof really make a difference to you? Since you seem to react just fine to it, why would it matter?

Organized religion makes the biggest stink about such things and gives them the "bad" label.

Would proof in favor of such things make a difference to you? Since you react just fine without it? We all have a set of beliefs.

 

[Quiddity]

That we do. People can't just go out and buy a gun any more. But If they're so bad, why not make the "thing" completely illegal?

No skin off my back.

So ban alchohol so that never happens again. Who cares if it's not harmful to milions of people. People get hurt by it so it should be completly outlawed. That'll fix it right?

I was using alcohol in conjunction to your line of reasoning. Of course it's not going to completely resolve the problem. I'm not one that would promote for such a thing simply because it's not the same.

The point was that both have mind altering affects that are unproductive and harmful. Alcohol only does that if you get drunk. Porno on the other hand does it from the second it begins.

You let alchohol rule you. You bought the drinks. You drank them. Nobody put a gun to your head. You are responsible. Not alcohol.

Oh I believe the person should be held responsible alright, but I don't believe the person would do such a thing if he was sober. Do you?

 

[Quiddity]

Organized religion makes the biggest stink about such things and gives them the "bad" label.

Well, that is the inadvertent affect of any instituation that has standards. It's no different on an individual, except you replace the instituation for yourself.

Would proof in favor of such things make a difference to you? Since you react just fine without it? We all have a set of beliefs.

I'm guessing your answer is a "no"?

 

[Mister_T]

Mister_T. I respectfully disagree. Actually, Ted Bundy who raped and killed 50 women and girls said that porn shaped his behaviour

But this only happens to a handful of people. These people have a psycological problem. That is not porn's fault.

Bundy went out and did those things himself. Porn did not put a gun to his head.

According to a study conducted by a group of psychologists, Neil Malamuth of UCLA, Gene Abel of Columbia University, and William Marshall of Kingston Penitentiary, various forms of pornography can elicit fantasies which may lead to crime. Out of a test group of 18 rapists studied who used 'consenting pornography' to instigate a sexual offence, seven of them said that it provided a cue to elicit fantasies of forced sex.
A study released by the University of New Hampshire has proven that the states which have the highest readership of pornographic magazines such as Playboy and Penthouse also have the highest rape rates. The Michigan State Police department found that pornography is used or imitated in 41 percent of the sex crimes they have investigated.

I'm sure they had other things in common as well. Porn is quite common in todays society.

I'm sure people who have commited murders by stabbing people to death had kitchen knives. I guess kitchen knives are bad too.

 

[Mister_T]

Oh I believe the person should be held responsible alright, but I don't believe the person would do such a thing if he was sober. Do you?

Probably not. But then again, if he exercised some self control, he wouldn't have done such a thing.

 

[Mister_T]

Is there a medal for debating six people at once? If there is, I deserve it.

 

[Quiddity]

Probably not. But then again, if he exercised some self control, he wouldn't have done such a thing.

There lies the crux of the whole thing. Most people can't control themselves.

Let's agree to disagree. But in all that is historical, there is little doubt that Christians throughout the ages (of all denominations) have seen such activities as "sinful". The idea that it is not is but a new phenomenon.

 

[Quiddity]

Is there a medal for debating six people at once? If there is, I deserve it.

LOL...you did fine. I've been in this situation a number of times in the forum and in real life.

 

[Mister_T]

There lies the crux of the whole thing. Most people can't control themselves.

Let's agree to disagree. But in all that is historical, there is little doubt that Christians throughout the ages (of all denominations) have seen such activities as "sinful". The idea that it is not is but a new phenomenon.

Fair enough. My brain is fried. :bonk: