Is Abortion Murder?

[fantome profane]

It is a FUTURE individual, I was fa fetus once, l presume you too

Exactly. And it is possible that it will have individual rights in the future.

You asked what the difference was. That is the difference.

 

[leov]

Exactly. And it is possible that it will have individual rights in the future.

You asked what the difference was. That is the difference.

Our lives include fetus stage, we CANNOT bypass it, it is one set.

 

[fantome profane]

Our lives include fetus stage, we CANNOT bypass it, it is one set.

Yes that is correct. We went through a stage when we were not individuals and so did not have individual rights.

Then we became children and had certain individual rights but still did not have all the rights of an adults.

And then we became adults, and had all the rights of an adults individual.

We cannot bypass childhood. That does not mean 2 year old children should be allowed to vote , or drive cars.

 

[Deeje]

That doesn't qualify it being a person though. A 6 week fetus develops human characteristics but it does not mean it is a person. I can build a robot with appendages like that of a human doesn't make it human. See: personhood

"Personhood"? Are you serious? That is simply legal mumbo jumbo. Who cares what the law of the land says? If something contravenes the law of God, then I obey the latter.

A robot with appendages is not a living being. It has no heartbeat or conscience, its just a machine. It has no intelligence that is not programmed into it by is maker.

So if I had a 12 year-old daughter who was raped and ends up pregnant she should go through the secondary traumatic experience of giving birth to a child out of non-consensual sex because that child has a right to live?

That would be up to her parents. A child produced by rape is the other innocent victim here. Do we penalize the child because of who its father is?
Appeals to emotion don't solve the problem.
I read a story once about a woman who was raped by an intruder and fell pregnant. She carried that baby and gave birth to him. He is loved and nurtured because he is equally her son, not just the son of a rapist.

It all depends on your attitude and beliefs.

Not always

True....but missing a period when you are regular is a pretty good indicator that a pregnancy test is in order.

Everyone is free to do as their own conscience dictates.....but we have a conscience for a reason. Having an abortion messes many women up psychologically for the rest of their lives.....the guilt never leaves them. Is that also a desired outcome?

 

[leov]

Yes that is correct. We went through a stage when we were not individuals and so did not have individual rights.

Then we became children and had certain individual rights but still did not have all the rights of an adults.

And then we became adults, and had all the rights of an adults individual.


I am not disagreeing with anything you are saying.

Fetus does not belong to mother, people are brainwashed, it does not matter when you terminate human life...

 

[Salvador]

Yes that is correct. We went through a stage when we were not individuals and so did not have individual rights.

Then we became children and had certain individual rights but still did not have all the rights of an adults.

And then we became adults, and had all the rights of an adults individual.

We cannot bypass childhood. That does not mean 2 year old children should be allowed to vote , or drive cars.

Do you believe a well-developed fetus, which senses pain, should at least have animal rights to be treated humanely rather than tortured?

 

[fantome profane]

Do you believe a well-developed fetus, which senses pain, should at least have animal rights to be treated humanely rather than tortured?

If there is a way to abort without causing undo pain to the fetus or endangering the mother, then yes, those steps should be taken.

 

[Willamena]

If it is murder, we have an obligation to stop it. (It's against the law)

If it's not then we have an obligation to affirm it. (It's a constitutional right)

So, I will ask again, is it murder? And why or why not?

It's murder, but not of a live person, only of the idea of a person who may someday be.

 

[Revoltingest]

I voted <no> because the fetus is part of
the mother more than a separate individual.

 

[fantome profane]

It's murder, but not of a live person, only of the idea of a person who may someday be.

Murder of an idea?

Is this like character assassination?

 

[Salvador]

If there is a way to abort without causing undo pain to the fetus or endangering the mother, then yes, those steps should be taken.

Fortunately, ca. 99.99 percent of abortions are done before the third trimester when the fetus apparently becomes well-developed enough to feel pain. However, most of us Pro-Life supporters are staunchly opposed to the 0.01 percent of abortions done when a human fetus is well-developed enough to sense pain. All that many of us just humanely would like third trimester abortions be reasonably prohibited if at all possible

 

[Willamena]

Murder of an idea?

Is this like character assassination?

Different trope.

 

[fantome profane]

Fortunately, ca. 99.99 percent of abortions are done before the third trimester when the fetus apparently becomes well-developed enough to feel pain. However, most of us Pro-Life supporters are staunchly opposed to the 0.01 percent of abortions done when a human fetus is well-developed enough to sense pain.

As I said, if there was a safe way to prevent pain for the fetus without undo risk to the mother I would support that. But I still support the mother’s right to choose.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

The Creator.

Which one?

 

[Deeje]

I doubt microbes sense pain; however, a 24 week old human fetus arguably might be able to sense pain. I don't believe aborted fetuses younger than 24 weeks of age sense pain, so I'd have no qualms about first trimester or early second trimester abortions

I'm afraid I have qualms about abortion...period.

The method of aborting early term pregnancies often involves vacuum aspiration....a rather barbaric procedure that tears a tiny fetus limb from limb.....

Sorry for the graphic nature of the pictures but it is what it is.....

This is a nine week fetus...it is 100% human.

And this is what a nine week vacuum aborted fetus looks like.

Is this what we do to unwanted babies? Where is the humanity?

 

[osgart]

And if the law legislated one day that there is no such thing as murder. How many people would plunge into doing killing sprees?

Imagine that humans being allmighty judges of who is not fit to live. Savagery!

If only people would recognize that there is heart and intent in every action. And those hearts and intentions have cause and effect. And without a true standard then there is no trust. And without trust life is of no quality.

What then is liveable criteria for disposing of human beings? One day you might find yourself not living up to the criteria you set forth. Then what?

Without a truthful definition of murder all love and trust would break down. And oppression would be in full operation. People would only operate in fear, and they would try to be of use to war mongerers.

Morality is not relative to what humans decide. It exists objectively as the cause and effect of civilization, or to ignore that cause and effect and plunge into chaos.

To make a free society you must establish trustworthiness. That takes moral objectivity with or without gods. There is moral truth.

There is the letter of law, and then there is the heart of law which is either of innocence or guilt.

Heart intentions matter!

Sad to say there are people out there that would love to do away with the disabled and the helpless. Ignoring totally that they could be caring people. That is a guilty intention.

Caring people make life worthwhile.

And if humans want to become gods then freedom will die.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Do you know anyone who 'skipped ' this initial stage of development of the future born human?

Athena leaped out of Zeus' skull as a full adult.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

What is the difference its just terminating a human life?

Plenty. Not every termination of a human life can be construed as murder.

 

[Deeje]

Which one?

There is only one. The rest are satan in disguise.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

There is only one. The rest are satan in disguise.

The only creator that count when it comes to this subject is the mother of the fetus and it is only she that confers personhood and rights to the fetus. The fetus is given proxy rights by the mother alone because it is dependent upon her alone. If she says it is a person then it is a person, if she says it is not then it is not. She is sole arbiter of rights when it comes to the fetus!