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Is Abortion a Religious or Political Position?

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
What? No. Abortion is a mortal sin that incurs automatic excommunication if you get one or help someone else get one. It's viewed as murder of an innocent human being.

Respect for Unborn Human Life: The Church's Constant Teaching | USCCB

Question. People can go to confession if they harm or murder others as long as they have a repent and not do it again.

Since abortion is a one time thing, how would someone be excommunicated but then forgiven by god for murder?

In your view or others familiar with catholic doctrine.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Christianity is traditionally opposed to abortion, as well as infanticide, so it is a religious view then. So, both.
Why would opposing abortion imply opposing the vaccine?

- there's no fetal tissue in the vaccine
- no abortions were procured for the vaccine
- taking the vaccine won't do anything to cause any abortions
- all indications suggest that original fetal tissue used for the cell lines that eventually were used to test COVID-19 vaccines was an abortion to save the life of a pregnant person:

The original cells were transformed and immortalized in January 1973 by a young Canadian postdoc by the name of Frank Graham, who was working at the time in Leiden, the Netherlands in the laboratory of Professor Alex van der Eb.

Normally, a cell has a finite number of divisions, but Graham managed to modify these cells so that they divide ad infinitum.

This was his 293rd experiment, hence the name of the line (HEK stands for "human embryonic kidney cells").

"Use of fetal tissue was not uncommon in that period," Graham, a professor emeritus at Canada's McMaster University who now lives in Italy, told AFP.

"Abortion was illegal in the Netherlands until 1984 except to save the life of the mother. Consequently I have always assumed that the HEK cells used by the Leiden lab must have derived from a therapeutic abortion."
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
"Thus, the Church has always condemned abortion. Despite not having the technology and scientific knowledge we have today, the Fathers of the Eastern Orthodox Church always viewed abortion a grave sin and equated it with murder. Since our bodies are “temples of the Holy Spirit,” to kill an innocent human being is a crime, not only against that person, but also against the Holy Spirit, against God Himself. Thus, one cannot be a faithful Orthodox Christian and be “pro-choice” when it comes to abortion."
Of course, killing human beings we've found some kind of justification for offing is a whole other deal, and wars, executions, torture and genocide have been delightfully supported by Orthodox Christian clergy in the past.

Indeed, during the Yugoslavian civil war, faithful Orthodox Christians were said to forcibly introduce miscarriages in the Nonchristian women they raped, so they would not taint their 'sacred Christian soil' with Nonchristian offspring. One supposes that to them, Nonchristian fetuses were not innocent lives.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
According to the priest, the church let's practitioners make their own decisions if it doesn't conflict with catholic theological teachings. Unfortunately, the pope seems to think otherwise.
If a religion leaves the issue up to individual adherents, then the religion doesn't have a religious obligation on the issue.

If a religion doesn't have a religious obligation on an issue, then no accommodation is necessary to maintain freedom of religion.
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
Sussman-VaccinePregnancy.jpg

Just heard over the radio that religious exemptions will be accepted for vaccination.

So one lady wrote that they used fetal stem cells in testing the Covid 19 vaccine. Therefore since she is against abortion because of her religious beliefs, she is requesting an exemption for being vaccinated.

Is anti-abortion a fundamental religious belief?

Boston College is facing a wave of Catholic parents and students “disgusted” by religious exemptions being denied over a link to aborted fetal tissue used to test the efficacy of coronavirus vaccines.
Boston College faces fury over vaccine exemptions denied over coronavirus abortion link

It's a moral position.

Being pro-childbirth shouldn't be about being conservative or liberal. Nor should it be about being Christian or some other specific belief. It's about being a decent human being.

Let me explain. There is a child inside your body. If you really didn't want to raise a child (the "choice" to not have a baby), you should not have messed around with any men. Period. Likewise, men shouldn't be messing around with women if they don't want children. Keep it in your pants. But now that you didn't make responsible choices to begin with, I would expect you to be responsible enough to carry the child to term and offer it up for adoption and not take away its choice. In other words, being for abortion means you are not a decent human being but rather a selfish and narcissistic *******, who would prefer to kill others who are smaller and weaker than you, rather than have them get in the way of your singles lifestyle.

Whether you are an atheist or Christian, left or right politically, nobody should be doing this. It's barbaric. In fact, just how barbaric is it? In ancient Judaism, they specifically forbid the sacrifice of children to the god Molech. This is prehistoric Israel, and even they are more civilized than this.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Is anti-abortion a fundamental religious belief?

I see the spiritual guidance for such a choice are vast, and each situation would have its own complexities.

The Law of God is what guides a person of Faith, but we are prone to error of good judgement.

Regards Tony
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
If a religion leaves the issue up to individual adherents, then the religion doesn't have a religious obligation on the issue.

If a religion doesn't have a religious obligation on an issue, then no accommodation is necessary to maintain freedom of religion.

True. I think that's what the priest was getting at. Unless there were a church exemption Catholics couldn't use it as an exempt. JW maybe, I don't know.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
It's a moral position.

Being pro-childbirth shouldn't be about being conservative or liberal. Nor should it be about being Christian or some other specific belief. It's about being a decent human being.

Let me explain. There is a child inside your body. If you really didn't want to raise a child (the "choice" to not have a baby), you should not have messed around with any men. Period. Likewise, men shouldn't be messing around with women if they don't want children. Keep it in your pants. But now that you didn't make responsible choices to begin with, I would expect you to be responsible enough to carry the child to term and offer it up for adoption and not take away its choice. In other words, being for abortion means you are not a decent human being but rather a selfish and narcissistic *******, who would prefer to kill others who are smaller and weaker than you, rather than have them get in the way of your singles lifestyle.

Whether you are an atheist or Christian, left or right politically, nobody should be doing this. It's barbaric. In fact, just how barbaric is it? In ancient Judaism, they specifically forbid the sacrifice of children to the god Molech. This is prehistoric Israel, and even they are more civilized than this.
What does any of this have to do with the vaccine?

The vaccines were tested on cells from a kidney cell line derived from a fetus that was aborted in the Netherlands in 1973.

That fetus wasn't aborted to provide medical testing material, and it will stay aborted no matter what we do today.

Using those cells will not increase the demand for abortions. After all, they've been successfully propagating cell lines from that one fetus for nearly 50 years.

I'm just not clear on what it is people are objecting to.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
True. I think that's what the priest was getting at. Unless there were a church exemption Catholics couldn't use it as an exempt. JW maybe, I don't know.

Are Jehovah’s Witnesses Opposed to Vaccination?

No. Jehovah’s Witnesses are not opposed to vaccination. We view vaccination as a personal decision for each Christian to make. Many of Jehovah’s Witnesses choose to get vaccinated.
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jw-vaccines-immunization/
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Christianity is traditionally opposed to abortion, as well as infanticide, so it is a religious view then. So, both.
Not true. There have historically been different thoughts on abortion in Christianity:

Abortion and Catholic thought. The little-known history - PubMed

The history of Catholic teaching on abortion isn’t as clear cut as you think

In fact Christian anti-abortion, at least from conception, is a relatively recent development. I think it first began mid 19th century.
 

Regiomontanus

Ματαιοδοξία ματαιοδοξιών! Όλα είναι ματαιοδοξία.
Of course, killing human beings we've found some kind of justification for offing is a whole other deal, and wars, executions, torture and genocide have been delightfully supported by Orthodox Christian clergy in the past.

Indeed, during the Yugoslavian civil war, faithful Orthodox Christians were said to forcibly introduce miscarriages in the Nonchristian women they raped, so they would not taint their 'sacred Christian soil' with Nonchristian offspring. One supposes that to them, Nonchristian fetuses were not innocent lives.

Yes, very sad. Humans are flawed.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Do you think if this goes to court, it will or should be accepted as a religious exemption
No.

I read the Pope is anti-abortion, which kind of surprised me. I thought the Catholic church had become more liberal but I guess not in this regard.
That has not changed and I don't think it ever will. However, there's something more than just Church teachings that's at stake here, especially since many of us live in democracies.

The point is does the state have an obligation to reflect a particular denomination's or religion's point of view, and the answer imo is no because then it would no longer be a democracy. Here in the States, around 60% of Americans do want abortion to be legal. Thus, a Catholic president like Biden is bound to uphold the Constitution and the rule of law in general, not necessarily what the Church teaches.

IOW, a "Catch-22".
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Not true. There have historically been different thoughts on abortion in Christianity:

Abortion and Catholic thought. The little-known history - PubMed

The history of Catholic teaching on abortion isn’t as clear cut as you think

In fact Christian anti-abortion, at least from conception, is a relatively recent development. I think it first began mid 19th century.
That's because of what's called "quickening", thus previous to a baby being felt moving there was the concept that it wasn't really a child. More recent science changed that perception.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
She just gave her opinion, she was not telling that others to do the same.
Hence it's not overreacting, just sharing her opinion/feelings (sharing one's emotion is something that ought not to be judged)
Well, that works both ways, doesn't it. She has a right to express her opinion and I have a right to express mine, right?;)
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Well, that works both ways, doesn't it. She has a right to express her opinion and I have a right to express mine, right?;)

The reality is that no current fetus [baby] tissue is being used, thus "do no harm" is not being violated; but "do no harm" is being violated if she tries to convince others that they shouldn't get one of the vaccines.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Yes, very sad. Humans are flawed.
I note that you didn't fill an entire page with a rant about how war or genodice against fellow human beings are a crime condemned by Orthodox Christianity and the Orthodox churches. Perhaps that may be because no Orthodox Christian church has so roundly condemned war or ethnic cleansing as they have condemned abortion or homosexuality.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That's because of what's called "quickening", thus previous to a baby being felt moving there was the concept that it wasn't really a child. More recent science changed that perception.
In the past there were even different opinions on when a male fetus is "quickened" and when a female fetus was. One guess as to which they thought counted as a human being first.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Well, that works both ways, doesn't it. She has a right to express her opinion and I have a right to express mine, right?;)
There is a difference. She shares her opinion, but you criticize her opinion. If you would also share your opinion, then it would have been the same;) (of course I can't see what is in her mind, it might be that her words are different from her thoughts and she does the same like you ... criticize others who abort babies, I would not be surprised. But until proven differently, I give her the (little) benefit of the doubt;))
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Sussman-VaccinePregnancy.jpg

Just heard over the radio that religious exemptions will be accepted for vaccination.

So one lady wrote that they used fetal stem cells in testing the Covid 19 vaccine. Therefore since she is against abortion because of her religious beliefs, she is requesting an exemption for being vaccinated.

Is anti-abortion a fundamental religious belief?

Boston College is facing a wave of Catholic parents and students “disgusted” by religious exemptions being denied over a link to aborted fetal tissue used to test the efficacy of coronavirus vaccines.
Boston College faces fury over vaccine exemptions denied over coronavirus abortion link
It can be.
It's obviously a belief. Any belief can be a religion.
 
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