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Featured Is Abortion a Religious or Political Position?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Nakosis, Sep 13, 2021.

  1. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    [​IMG]

    Just heard over the radio that religious exemptions will be accepted for vaccination.

    So one lady wrote that they used fetal stem cells in testing the Covid 19 vaccine. Therefore since she is against abortion because of her religious beliefs, she is requesting an exemption for being vaccinated.

    Is anti-abortion a fundamental religious belief?

    Boston College is facing a wave of Catholic parents and students “disgusted” by religious exemptions being denied over a link to aborted fetal tissue used to test the efficacy of coronavirus vaccines.
    Boston College faces fury over vaccine exemptions denied over coronavirus abortion link
     
    #1 Nakosis, Sep 13, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  2. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein The Uncuckable
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    Christianity is traditionally opposed to abortion, as well as infanticide, so it is a religious view then. So, both.
     
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  3. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Basically, yes.

    The strains that were used were from decades old lines, so I tend to think she's overreacting, especially since we know it saves lives now-- lots of 'em, matter of fact.
     
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  4. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    Abortion itself is a resolved legal matter with the Roe versus Wade decision.

    The anti-abortion issue has always been both political and religious. The Reagan era of politics opened the door to combining the GOP with evangelical Christianity. It's been this alliance that has meant anti-abortion policies have grown over the decades. Church has become involved with state politics in a very strong way. The GOP has been able to use this position as an issue they can point to as proof they care about people, while they go about ignoring healthcare reform.
     
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  5. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    Not all vaccines were tested using fetal stem cells, so the argument is moot.
    I guess anti-abortion can be a religious influenced belief.
    Anti-abortion laws otoh are a secular/judicial/political thing.
    If you are religiously against abortions, don't get one. If you are voting/demanding/protesting (anti-)abortion, you are a political activist.

    (And if you want an exemption from vaccination based on stem cell research, you are misinformed.)
     
    #5 Heyo, Sep 13, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2021
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  6. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus retired astronomer

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    "Thus, the Church has always condemned abortion. Despite not having the technology and scientific knowledge we have today, the Fathers of the Eastern Orthodox Church always viewed abortion a grave sin and equated it with murder. Since our bodies are “temples of the Holy Spirit,” to kill an innocent human being is a crime, not only against that person, but also against the Holy Spirit, against God Himself. Thus, one cannot be a faithful Orthodox Christian and be “pro-choice” when it comes to abortion."

    [​IMG]
    An icon of the Theotokos holding her son, Jesus Christ (left), and a guardian angel embracing an unborn child (right).


    The Orthodox Church's View on Abortion
     
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  7. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    It's basically a moral issue. But unfortunately, we humans can't seem to keep our morals to ourselves. We think everyone else should abide by them. And in a democratic collective sense that is partly true: morality tends to be enforced by general consensus.

    At the present time, however, we do not have a strong general consensus. We are somewhat evenly divided on the issue, which means no matter what we decide, a lot of people will disagree with it. All the more reason, I would think, to let people decide for themselves. But religion has weighed in on the issue, and religion is not democratic. Nor will it tolerate any affront to it's self-assumed righteousness. Such that those who base their own moral determination of their religion become absolutely intractable, and intolerant; willing to suppress and subvert democracy itself to get their moral determinations imposed on everyone else. And that, then, makes it a social and political issue, as well.
     
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  8. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein The Uncuckable
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    Such a beautiful holy icon. Never seen it before. Thanks.
     
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  9. JustGeorge

    JustGeorge Well-Known Member
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    I think I'm an oddball here, so I'll weigh in. I won't stay in this discussion(I will unwatch after this reply) and won't respond to quotes(so don't bother) because the issue of abortion makes me sick and I don't want to discuss it. No sense ruining my day. However, I feel all we hear from regarding abortion is from one 'side' or the other. I want to give what I feel is a different perspective.

    There is no clear cut 'yes or no' in my religion regarding abortion. Hinduism doesn't work like that. When I was a Pagan, I was still pro-life, even though most Pagans are not. There is no clear cut stance in Paganism, either, though most Pagans tend to be liberal, politically speaking.

    Politically speaking, I think both parties are full of crap, and they don't influence my pro-life stance at all. I think those who are politically pro-life miss the mark; those who would see all babies born also have little interest in helping care for them, and often vote against spending on society's more needy. Politically speaking, I'd love to see all needy women and babies cared for so finances didn't have to come into play when a woman encounters an unexpected pregnancy. I'd also like to see no barriers receiving birth control, as this is going to be most important in stopping unexpected pregnancies.

    I am pro-life because I believe in the sanctity of life. I have been pregnant three times, and I could interact with my babies, and they had personalities(enough so that I could tell a bit what they were like before birth). I know not all women feel this way, but women are not a uniform group. However, my reverence for life does not end after birth. I care for life after it is born, for the life of the mother and father as well. I would love to see health care available for all to sustain that life, and policy in place to sustain the life of the flora and fauna as well. For me, pro-life goes beyond abortion(though it includes it).

    I can't say my views are either political or religious for me. Its just part of my heart.
     
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  10. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Do you think if this goes to court, it will or should be accepted as a religious exemption
    I read the Pope is anti-abortion, which kind of surprised me. I thought the Catholic church had become more liberal but I guess not in this regard.
     
  11. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein The Uncuckable
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    What? No. Abortion is a mortal sin that incurs automatic excommunication if you get one or help someone else get one. It's viewed as murder of an innocent human being.

    Respect for Unborn Human Life: The Church's Constant Teaching | USCCB
     
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  12. Snow White

    Snow White Veteran Member

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    I'm pro-choice. But I probably won't go at length describing why, for much the same reason I don't get involved in racial issues threads any more, plus it seems like most people already have their mind made up anyway.
     
  13. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    I am pro-choice.

    I've said this before and I'll say it again, that does not mean I am pro-abortion.
    Abortion is a last choice when all other options have been considered by the mother (and father) and professionals BUT it should not be removed as an option.

    In extreme cases such as rape and incest there is absolutely no case for preventing an abortion.

    If women are to be forced to give birth then there must be ...
    • Better sex education
    • Free contraceptives
    • Free child care
    • Free health care for both mother and child
     
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  14. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    I agree it's both.

    As to "traditionally", not in the more distant past:

    St. Augustine declared that abortion is not homicide but was a sin if it was intended to conceal fornication or adultery.

    More here: Abortion and Catholic thought. The little-known history - PubMed
     
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  15. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    And in turn I will "unread" your comments and "unthink" about them, so you needn't have bothered posting at all. ;)
     
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  16. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein The Uncuckable
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    "In order to give a fair treatment of Augustine’s view I turn to an entry by John C. Bauerschmidt, Abortion, in Augustine Through The Ages: An Encyclopedia. He writes:

    “Abortion: Augustine, in common with most other ecclesiastical writers of his period, vigorously condemned the practice of induced abortion. Procreation was one of the goods of marriage; abortion figured as a means, along with drugs which cause sterility, of frustrating this good. It lay along a continuum which included infanticide as an instance of ‘lustful cruelty’ or ‘cruel lust.’ Augustine called the use of means to avoid the birth of a child an ‘evil work:’ a reference to either abortion or contraception or both.”

    According to a spokesperson, the public official’s “views on when life begins were informed by the views of Saint Augustine, who said: ‘the law does not provide that the act (abortion) pertains to homicide, for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation.’” (Saint Augustine, On Exodus 21.22) Clearly Augustine believed, according to the science of his day, that the “body” of a pre-born child “lacked sensation” and from this he concluded that the child likewise lacked a human soul. Since the creature in the womb of its mother seemed to lack both sensation and soul, at least until the 40th day after conception, he had questions about the full humanity of the child. If Augustine had access to ultrasound images or if he had seen the film, “Silent Scream,” he would have had no doubt about whether the child “lacked sensation.”

    Precisely because of the lack of scientific precision, Augustine distinguished between a vivified and unvivified fetus, (a fetus before or after ensoulment). Since he could not conceive of an ensouled person without sensation, he concluded that the abortion of a “pre-vivifed” fetus, while a grave evil, could not be considered, in the strict moral sense, a murder."
    Modern Look at Abortion Not Same as St. Augustine's | EWTN

    He still viewed it as a grave sin, though. So their quibble is weird, especially as that's from a breakway Catholic group that wants the Church to accept abortion (Catholics for Choice; Conscience is their magazine, and it's weird that PubMed had that on there as it's not a scientific article).
     
  17. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    I'm not sure that her objection follows from her concern. Cell lines derived from fetal tissue were used to test COVID-19 vaccines - as with many other drugs - but the vaccine contains no fetal material, no abortions occurred because of the vaccine, and taking the vaccine will in no way cause any abortions to occur.

    If that's her argument, then I would reject it unless:

    - she generally avoids all drugs tested on cell lines derived from fetal tissue, and
    - her religion has a documented stance or tenet that would forbid her taking the vaccine.

    If she's Catholic, she would fail on the second point:

    Vatican: Coronavirus vaccines 'morally acceptable' for Catholics
     
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  18. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    Since it appears to be totally absurd to ascribe moral significance to the termination of a fertilized human egg, I would say it is mainly religious. Like the ban on eating pork some religions have.

    ciO

    - viole

    .
     
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  19. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    She just gave her opinion, she was not telling others to do the same.
    Hence it's not overreacting, just sharing her opinion/feelings (sharing one's emotion is something that ought not to be judged)
     
    #19 stvdv, Sep 13, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  20. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    Here's something that may interest you.



    According to the priest, the church let's practitioners make their own decisions if it doesn't conflict with catholic theological teachings. Unfortunately, the pope seems to think otherwise.
     
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