1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Is a formal unbaptism required when one leaves Christianity?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Desert Snake, May 8, 2018.

?
  1. Yes, unbaptism is necessary for baptized christians when they leave the religion

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. No, it doesn't make any difference

    80.0%
  3. Optimal, but not necessary

    20.0%
  1. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,658
    Ratings:
    +1,697
    Religion:
    Satanism
    The real purpose of the church baptism, is when one is converting, or just becoming , a Believer, or simply showing a new church, that you have joined that group..presumably.

    In this sense, the baptism does have meaning, it is 'declaration' of sorts, aside from a symbolic inference to your belief, or new belief.

    The directive being to 'baptize the nations', if you are part of that 'nation', in religious belief, the church baptism is symbolic, /unnecessary/ , ie you can't get something that you already have.

    This means, that an unbaptism, is a declaration of your leaving the faith, and, would have meaning if you chose to be baptized, but no meaning, if you didn't. Imo.
     
  2. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,658
    Ratings:
    +1,697
    Religion:
    Satanism
    I would say that it could be very important, to the person.

    If the person converted, or just became a believer, this might be very important. So it isn't always the same thing, in meaning.

    If the person considered that it did have an affect, it would be important.

    There are different types of churches, as well. They baptize differently.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,658
    Ratings:
    +1,697
    Religion:
    Satanism
    It isn't a requirement.
    No, unless Jewish baptism includes being baptized in the name of the father, the son, and the Spirit.

    It is symbolic if you are of a 'nation', ie religious belief, that is already baptized. It is more than symbolic, if you converted, or came from non faith.


    That is true, however it is not the baptism that is not valid, it is the fact of the false pretenses.
    ..
    I have no idea why you did not vote for necessary unbaptism, considering your comments.


    So far, we have according to your comments
    Church baptism is symbolic of the 'vow'. /hence symbolic.
    Ok, that's fine
    Church baptism was necessary for 'gentiles', because they were not jews.
    Jewish baptism, isn't christian baptism, hence false


    This leaves, the church baptism, is a symbolic representation of conversion, or new faith. Unnecessary, if you are already a believer, ie one of the 'nations', this means religious belief. And, 'means something', to the person choosing baptism. Hence baptism is an important personal choice, that could have a meaning more than symbolism, for the convert, or new believer.
     
    #23 Desert Snake, May 15, 2018
    Last edited: May 15, 2018
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,649
    Ratings:
    +8,295
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Oh but it is, as per Jesus' instructions before he left this earth....

    Matthew 28:19-20....."Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (NASB) (see also John 3:26-30; Acts 19:1-7)

    As noted in Acts 19:1-7 Gentiles did not get baptized with John's baptism, but were required to be "baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus".

    There is no such thing as 'a nation already baptized'. Christian baptism is an individual choice. It means exactly the same for all....convert or unbeliever.

    Infant baptism for example is not valid. No infant can dedicate themselves to God. You have to choose to be baptized in full recognition of what it means. No one can do that for you.

    Not sure what to make of that :shrug:.....John's baptism was only for Jews. Gentiles had no need to apologize for breaking God's law because it never applied to them. They were required to undergo Christian baptism to show publicly that they were followers of Jesus Christ. Jews did too.

    That makes absolutely no sense.....:confused:
     
  5. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,658
    Ratings:
    +1,697
    Religion:
    Satanism
    And I believe that Jesus meant 'nations', as He said. Not an other interpretation of that direct statement.


    This doesn't mean that the jewish baptism is or was a substitute for the christian baptism. You are also using the word jewish very broadly, here.


    Not according to Jesus. Jesus very plainly said 'nations'.


    Actually they weren't "required". That is a church idea that refutes the direct statement of Jesus.


    Sure it does, baptism is a personal choice that replicates the baptism of the 'nations', on an individual level.
     
  6. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    79,047
    Ratings:
    +33,168
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    What's an unbaptism? Is renouncing Jehovah and speaking poorly of the Holy Ghost (Matthew 12:32) good enough? I was baptized, but I've never felt I had to do anything more than call it quits.
     
  7. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    79,047
    Ratings:
    +33,168
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    I assure you, the feeling is mutual.
     
  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,649
    Ratings:
    +8,295
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Are you serious? How does one baptize a nation? What are nations made up of?

    How do you teach a nation to be Christian? Tell me what nations would qualify?

    Only individuals can be baptized. It requires a body of water and a desire to become a footstep follower of Christ.

    That is a ridiculous interpretation of that scripture when the rest of the NT talks only of individuals being baptized.

    Is that what I said? Can I clarify again....? John's baptism was only for Jews as a symbol of their repentance over breaking the Law of Moses. After they had accepted Jesus as Messiah, they then underwent another baptism as disciples of Christ.....with me so far? Two different baptisms OK?

    Gentiles came into the Christian arrangement when Cornelius and his household were baptized. As a Gentile was never under God's law, there was no need for John's baptism and just as well because John was beheaded by King Herod before Jesus died. There was only one baptism for Gentiles.

    That is a nonsense. You cannot baptize a nation. There is no such thing as a geographical "Christian" nation and never was.

    No, sorry, scripture proves you wrong. Christian baptism on an individual basis was the only one taught in the NT.

    Show me a scripture that says this. I have never heard of nations being baptized.....because it is impossible...tell me how it it is accomplished (with scripture). Baptism is a physical act in front of witnesses.
     
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,649
    Ratings:
    +8,295
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    No need to tell me...God already knows. :)
     
  10. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,658
    Ratings:
    +1,697
    Religion:
    Satanism
    This is Jesus Himself instructing this, I suppose that isn't very important to you.


    Jesus instructs to baptize the nations. You want it to mean something else.

    Incorrect, Jesus says to baptize the nations.

    Matthew 28:19
    This is very clear, and the main statement regarding baptism, being from Jesus Himself

    Perhaps provide a verse that instructs there must be witnesses to baptism.
     
    #30 Desert Snake, May 16, 2018
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
    • Funny Funny x 1
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    14,649
    Ratings:
    +8,295
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Matthew 3:5-6...."Then Jerusalem and all Ju·deʹa and all the country around the Jordan made their way out to him, 6 and people were baptized by him in the Jordan River, openly confessing their sins."

    Acts 2:40-41...."And with many other words he gave a thorough witness and kept exhorting them, saying: “Get saved from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who gladly accepted his word were baptized, and on that day about 3,000 people were added."

    Notice that it says "Jerusalem and all Judea" "made their way out" to John and "people" were baptised".
    3,000 were baptized in one day.

    Now perhaps you can tells us how it is possible to baptize nations?
     
    #31 Deeje, May 16, 2018
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  12. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,658
    Ratings:
    +1,697
    Religion:
    Satanism


    Baptism here is illustrative of, as I noted, actual conversion. This is replicating baptism on the individual level.

    Someone who is a believer does not need to be baptized, because the real baptism, by Jesus, does not need, or is not instructed, by the church baptism. Your concept of baptism, means the church is taking on the role of Jesus..which cannot happen, and does not happen.

    When the nation is baptized, the people become believers. Thus, why the baptism, by Jesus, can occur.
     
    #32 Desert Snake, May 16, 2018
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
Loading...