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Irish Woman Dies When Denied Abortion

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I wonder about this "adherence". I mean, they could follow the law that said that ABORTION (which wouldn´t be called that if the baby was dead already) is allowed if it risks the mother´s health, so I just don´t get what they are talking about the heartbeat.

AFAICT, the law doesn't say that abortion is allowed if it risks the mother's health or life.

From what I've read, the law in Ireland still prohibits abortion in all cases. A Supreme Court ruling said that the law should allow abortion when the woman's life is at risk, but none of the governments since then have actually changed the law to reflect this.

This leaves the country with a contradictory state of affairs: is abortion to save a woman's life legal? It's not really clear.

But from what I can tell, Irish law doesn't allow abortion only to protect the health of the mother.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
AFAICT, the law doesn't say that abortion is allowed if it risks the mother's health or life.

From what I've read, the law in Ireland still prohibits abortion in all cases. A Supreme Court ruling said that the law should allow abortion when the woman's life is at risk, but none of the governments since then have actually changed the law to reflect this.

This leaves the country with a contradictory state of affairs: is abortion to save a woman's life legal? It's not really clear.

But from what I can tell, Irish law doesn't allow abortion only to protect the health of the mother.

So, they truly don't know either way whether or not to save a woman's life? Really? Even when it is positive that the pregnancy is failing anyway? :facepalm: Perhaps this may be just the wake up call some people need there.
 

Alex_G

Enlightner of the Senses
Yeah, this never happens with modern medicine.

Woman 'denied a termination' dies in hospital
Her husband, Praveen Halappanavar (34), an engineer at Boston Scientific in Galway, says she asked several times over a three-day period that the pregnancy be terminated. He says that, having been told she was miscarrying, and after one day in severe pain, Ms Halappanavar asked for a medical termination.

This was refused, he says, because the foetal heartbeat was still present and they were told, “this is a Catholic country”.

She spent a further 2½ days “in agony” until the foetal heartbeat stopped.
Isn't the movement supposed to be "pro-LIFE?"


Pretty tragic news. Poorly managed to say the least.

There are different classification of abortion, ranging from threatened (which can settle and carry on to term) to inevitable. Each need to be managed differently. She seemed to be going through an inevitable abortion, ( dilated cervical os, passing amniotic fluid, uterine cramping (pain), dilation of the cervix) with a baby that was clearly under the maturity needed for viability. (she was at 17 weeks) The baby is already definitely going to die the moment you have those 2 bits of info, heart beat presence isnt an answer. Mothers life should be the 1st priority always.
Additionally with broken membranes, infection chance is much higher, and gets progressively higher the longer its left that way. They should have had a low threshold to intervene.

Management can be to allow the products to pass naturally, avoiding any complications from intervening medically or surgically, but they should have been closely monitoring her obs for signs of infection, so they really messed up there.

the 'this is a catholic country' is infuriating and shocking...
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
After reading the article, it appears to me that the docs initially missed the mother's having a dangerous infection.
I don't know anything about Irish law or medicine (except orthopedic surgery):
Some questions:
1) To what extend did the refusal to abort affect the outcome?
2) Is to be in the process of miscarrying not sufficient justification for an abortion?
3) How risky to the mother's life must a pregnancy be in order to justify an abortion?
4) Does the existence of a fetal heartbeat make the answers to #2 & #3 irrelevant?
5) If yest to #4, wouldn't this make saving the mother's life irrelevant?
6) Were the docs disobeying the law for personal religious reasons?

It certainly warrants an investigation of the docs.
I hope hubby gets a punishingly big settlement.
 
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Me Myself

Back to my username
AFAICT, the law doesn't say that abortion is allowed if it risks the mother's health or life.

From what I've read, the law in Ireland still prohibits abortion in all cases. A Supreme Court ruling said that the law should allow abortion when the woman's life is at risk, but none of the governments since then have actually changed the law to reflect this.

This leaves the country with a contradictory state of affairs: is abortion to save a woman's life legal? It's not really clear.

But from what I can tell, Irish law doesn't allow abortion only to protect the health of the mother.

Ah. I thought it was like Ecuador, I must have confused the "should" with the "is" somewhere in the article.
 

Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
I wonder if her race was also a factor in alienating her and her painful situation from the empathy of those charged with her treatment. She was probably not a Catholic as well, so to say to her "this is a Catholic country" is triply cutting.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
I wonder if her race was also a factor in alienating her and her painful situation from the empathy of those charged with her treatment. She was probably not a Catholic as well, so to say to her "this is a Catholic country" is triply cutting.

That quote was told to her, from what I could tell, more than once. To which her response was, at least once, that she was neither Irish nor Catholic. She was from India and was Hindu as far as I know.
 

Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
Were I her husband & family I'd be, aside from aggrieved, beyond ******. Galway's malpractice attorneys are salivating at the prospect.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
I think, if I were her or her family, I'd be demanding an emergency airlift to a hospital in Scotland or Wales or England or anyplace not quite so screwed up in its pregnancy/termination/abortion law. I'd certainly recommend that to any woman in Ireland who might possibly end up in a situation like hers in the future.
 

Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
A bit late for that, no? I doubt they had any sense of their options - or just how fatal of a situation they were facing was. That's hindsight territory.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
A bit late for that, no? I doubt they had any sense of their options - or just how fatal of a situation they were facing was. That's hindsight territory.

I know, I know. Wish she would have though. She might be alive now if only. So many people, once they get in a hospital, think they are stuck there and that the treatment they are getting is what they have to receive. I've left one hospital for another before because I was unsatisfied with the hospital I was in and the hospital I went to gifted me with much better service and treatment. I just wish people didn't feel so stuck with the medical services they get when they could get better. Especially when we see outcomes like this. :(
 

Alex_G

Enlightner of the Senses
After reading the article, it appears to me that the docs initially missed the mother's having a dangerous infection.
I don't know anything about Irish law or medicine (except orthopedic surgery):
Some questions:
1) To what extend did the refusal to abort affect the outcome?
2) Is to be in the process of miscarrying not sufficient justification for an abortion?
3) How risky to the mother's life must a pregnancy be in order to justify an abortion?
4) Does the existence of a fetal heartbeat make the answers to #2 & #3 irrelevant?
5) If yest to #4, wouldn't this make saving the mother's life irrelevant?
6) Were the docs disobeying the law for personal religious reasons?

It certainly warrants an investigation of the docs.
I hope hubby gets a punishingly big settlement.


With spontaneous abortions/miscarriages (ie not ones planned for by parents), people dont arrive at hospital saying that’s what’s wrong, its usually something like vaginal bleeding, or in her case back pain (which is slightly ambiguous and often there for totally benign reasons)

However after going in, she would have/should have had basic checks done through a history and exam. As ive mentioned your diagnosis will vary based on whats found. This article uses the wording 'was found to be miscarrying', which suggests to me she was having whats called an inevitable abortion/miscarriage. Thats defined by the cervical os being open during pregnancy. At such a point, there is absolutely no point of return to the pregnancy, its simply a matter of time till the body passes it.

(just for reference other classifications of abortions/miscarriages are, threatened abortion -which is just the symptoms such as bleeding, but baby is intact, alive and cervix still closed on examination, missed - baby is dead in womb but cervix is still closed, incomplete - some products passed but not all, and complete -the whole of the pregnancy has already been passed when they're examined) All have different management.

So to answer 1. leaving someone in a state of inevitable abortion both raises the risk of serious infection and risk of life threatening bleeding. With the baby below viability, it has no chance to survive, making intervention warranted to protect the mother. Refusal and the delay i think is directly related to her death from septicaemia.

2. threatened abortion is not to be terminated, but the ones that go past the point of no return generally should. Again it will rely on clinical judgment how best to manage any 1 individual, such that an inevitable abortion thats very early on in the pregnancy might not need medical/surgical intervention, but just allow it to pass naturally.

3. clinical judgment really defines this. But in this example, the examination findings will have ruled out this pregnancy from ever succeeding, (if the cervix was open) making deliberation over the baby vs mother's interests obsolete as the baby is destined to die.

4. i would think that the presence of a heartbeat simply shows its not a missed miscarriage. (dead baby closed cervix) but if the cervix is open, then heartbeat or not, the pregnancy is going to end prematurely. With a non viable fetus by dates, (too early) theres no hope the baby can live.

6. i cant speak for Ireland, but im pretty sure it doesnt fly in the rest of the uk. The reference to 'this is a catholic country' by the doctor counts towards professional negligence whereby they departed from their duty to the patient (the mother) and her wellbeing above all else.
 

lunakilo

Well-Known Member
It wouldn't have happened if not for draconian anti-choice laws. Sorry, but your stance strikes me remarkably callous.

I'm well aware that the doctors acted as legally required - that's the problem.

It was a bad decision made by the doctors but it's also bad law. Even if the woman's life had not been in danger, there was no need to put her through all that pain and anguish. That is why Roe v. Wade protects choice not only to preserve the life of the mother, but also the health of the mother.

She died of sepsis, i.e. blood poisoning and it's clear from the article her symptoms set in long before the operation, probably due to her body rejecting the (essentially) dead fetus.

Actually, what she was experiencing was an inevitable miscarriage. She was fully dilated and bleeding. The fetus just wasn't expelling on its own. In cases such as this, simply because of the fully dilated opening being open for so long, bacteria can enter through the vagina and into the uterus and cause the infections she had. They cause full system infections and shut downs and death. They were not a result of the operation, but the result of her being dilated for so long and being open to bacteria. It is exactly because of these things that terminations should be done, even if there is still a fetal heartbeat, because the pregnancy is not able to continue anyway and if left to proceed as it did with this unfortunate woman...you end up with these exact consequences.

You all seem to doctors. I am not.

I cannot read from the article that it was the because she was dilated that she got the infection and died, or if it was a result of her body rejecting the fetus or what.
I can just read that she had an infection of some kind and died. How that infection came about is not clear to me when I read the article.
It is also not clear to me that she would have survived had she been given an abortion earlier.

Irish law allows (as far as I know) terminating a pregnancy if the mothers life is in danger.
The doctors must not have thought her life was in danger, I assume they would have given her an abortion if they thought that would have saved her.

I agree that the law is stupid. If there was no way to save the fetus she should have had the option of terminating the pregnancy.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
You all seem to doctors. I am not.
No, I'm not a doctor. I just paid attention to the article, which made it abundantly clear.

Irish law allows (as far as I know) terminating a pregnancy if the mothers life is in danger.
The doctors must not have thought her life was in danger, I assume they would have given her an abortion if they thought that would have saved her.
On what grounds? The quote that "there's nothing we can do if the fetus has a heartbeat?" Or perhaps "This is a Catholic country?"
 

lunakilo

Well-Known Member
No, I'm not a doctor. I just paid attention to the article, which made it abundantly clear.
It is not abundantly clear to me.

On what grounds? The quote that "there's nothing we can do if the fetus has a heartbeat?" Or perhaps "This is a Catholic country?"
On what grounds what?

I assume they would have tried to safe her life had they thought her life was in danger because that is what doctors are supposed to do.
I don't get what the qoutes have to do with it.
 
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