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Iran steps further from nuke deal, adding pressure on Europe

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You misunderstood my point. The opposition would attack targets that would divert forces and resource away from military action. Repairs require security and consume resources. For example if the Red River dam and dike system was destroyed NV would have to allocate resources for security, repairs, manpower, etc. Government would also need to handle issues from the civilian population such as food supply shortages (Red River being a farming area) causing rioting. Transportation of civilian good no longer produced in the target area would need to be protected as well.

It is about what you target not merely any target.
Again, this is tactical thinking.
Our problems in Vietnam were strategic.
We spent so much in money & lives fighting individual battles,
but we had no idea how our enemy would respond. They
didn't behave as we thought they would. And the conflict
became wider, involving China & the Soviets.
The upshot was that we lost without even understanding why.
Work in both Japan and Germany. Heck the allies design bombs specifically to destroy dams and dike in Germany
We can design all the special bombs we want.
This is also true of the enemy, who will develop new ones too.
Tools are useful in war, but they are only tools.
One cannot focus upon them as "The Solution" because war is more complex.
Military superiority can be an illusion.
Our advantage against the Japanese was due to a stroke of luck, ie,
carriers not being in Pearl Harbor during the attack. Japan's tools of
war could've been superior had fate dealt them a better hand.
Had Hitler not violated his agreement with the USSR, thereby creating
a war on 2 major fronts, he could've won WW2. What if the war lasted
longer, & we hadn't destroyed his heavy water plant in Norway?
Oh, the tool he might've had.

People look back upon our WW2 victory as having been inevitable.
This is an uninformed & very dangerous attitude.
It breeds hubris, sanctimony, & bad judgment.
I am not proposing a long war. Air strike key infrastructure such as the power grid, major highways and water systems. The ensuing chaos
Does anyone ever propose a long war?
We were supposed to easily defeat Saddam, & then we'd be hailed by
the Iraqi populace as "heroes". War is a gamble. You toss the dice
when you believe the odds favor you. But then it takes on a meandering
life of its own.
Look up 4th generation warfare. It makes complete sense. The US military has acknowledge this type of warfare for decades. It is what modern nations fear. Destruction of the very infrastructure which makes a nation a modern one. Most nations rely upon modern conveniences without which cause a nation to collapse.
Have you ever designed weapons?
One takes into consideration the threats one knows of.
But one also must consider threats which are unknown.
Let's say that we attack Iran as you suggest.
It would take on the order of a year to put men & materiel into place.
This would be observed by all....Iran...Russia...China...ISIS...& every
other foe we already have, or might be thus newly created.
Suppose Iran allies itself with either Russia or China, who would
see an opportunity for profit &/or expansion of influence.....
What anti-ship & anti-aircraft weapons do you think they
have under development or already secretly deployed?
Our "surgical" strikes could result in heavy losses for both sides.
How do you think Trump & war lusty Ameristanians would respond
to the death of noble Christian Ameristanian boys & girls by
those bearded & brown, ignorant foreign heathens?

You imagine war proceeding according to plan.
I imagine war proceeding as history has demonstrated.
It is actually part of strategic warfare as the result damage
due to the loss of the system is far more important.
At the risk of sounding like a believer....
Men make plans.
God laughs.
Cut off trade with China. China's economy relies upon Western consumerism.
China....the nuclear power with hypersonic (anti-ship) weapons in the works?
How would we blockade their country? Certainly not with billions of dollars
of aircraft carriers which would be doomed to become artificial reefs in the
South China Sea.
No. More like Sherman.
Sherman's march was just one part of the Civil War.
China, Russia, & Iran have weaponry far more fell than did Johnny Reb.
But note also that the Civil War was Americastan's deadliest ever, with
more Ameristanians killed than any other, even WW2. Should we
intentionally relive that horror?
It was the strategy which won the Allies WW2 and the Union the Civil War. We bombed cities into the ground as cities are production centers. Sherman used fire.
There's a political problem here.
When generals advocated doing that to Vietnam, even using nukes
to wipe out the "gooks", leadership deemed that unacceptable.
If you got your way, & we actually started a scorched earth policy,
it would take time. And time is the enemy when a public is watching
pictures of naked children screaming from being napalmed. Their
initial resolve would wither, & it would become a war of half measures.
It would drag on until protests have some President try to save face
by slowly withdrawing (while prolonging the death & destruction)
until he (or she) can claim "Peace with honor".
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Again, this is tactical thinking.
Our problems in Vietnam were strategic.

No you are conflating combat tactics thus tactical warfare with strategic planning. Strategic planning can be accomplish view tactical warfare. The strategic plan is to cripple government and consume resources long term.

We spent so much in money & lives fighting individual battles,
but we had no idea how our enemy would respond. They
didn't behave as we thought they would. And the conflict
became wider, involving China & the Soviets.
The upshot was that we lost without even understanding why.

The military had been advocating expanding the war for years. Politicians ignored or rejected the idea.

We can design all the special bombs we want.

You missed the point. One of the reason certain systems were ignored was due to the view that normal bombing wouldn't work. The same thing as per Germany. Instead of abandoning the raid on Germany the Allies developed the weapons required for the raid. In NV this didn't happen.


This is also true of the enemy, who will develop new ones too.

Not to the same level depending on enemy.

Tools are useful in war, but they are only tools.
One cannot focus upon them as "The Solution" because war is more complex.
Military superiority can be an illusion.
Our advantage against the Japanese was due to a stroke of luck, ie,
carriers not being in Pearl Harbor. Japan's tools of war could've been
superior if fate had dealt them a better hand.

Nope as Japan couldn't and wouldn't invade America and was at a stalemate in China. Japan gambled that it could force America to sue for peace. This didn't happen. It just pissed America off. America could rebuilt it's fleet on the East Coast with no fear of Japan. The war would just have lasted longer. Japan had no real chance to begin with.

Had Hitler not violated his agreement with the USSR, thereby creating
a war on 2 major fronts, he could've won WW2

He was going to do it anyways. Invasion of Russia was part of his ideology before he was elected. The guy wasn't exactly sane. Didn't bring a coat either.

People look back upon our WW2 victory as having been inevitable.
This is an uninformed & very dangerous attitude.
It breeds hubris, sanctimony, & bad judgment.

It mostly was. Japan couldn't invade America. It couldn't even win in China. Japan's goal in all it's wars was to gain resource it lacked in comparison to Western nations.

Does anyone ever propose a long war?

Remove the idea of occupation and let Iran turn into chaos.

We were supposed to easily defeat Saddam,

You did. His military didn't stand a chance. You are conflating occupation and insurgency with the war. Occupation is not required in was. Saddams military last 3 weeks.


Have you ever designed weapons?

Does a potato gun count?

One takes into consideration the threats one knows of.
But one also must consider threats which are unknown.
Let's say that we attack Iran as you suggest.
It would take on the order of a year to put men & materiel into place.

The 5th Fleet is already there. The 6th Fleet is in the Mediterranean. Air power and ground force are already there as per Syria. The US is capable of rapid deployment. Again put occupation out of your mind

This would be observed by all....Iran...Russia...China...ISIS...& every
other foe we already have, or might be thus newly created.
Suppose Iran allies itself with either Russia or China, who would
see an opportunity for profit &/or expansion of influence.....

Cut trade with China. China has to pick US markets or Iran. Again this is why a lot of current conflicts never end as no one wants to put major strain in their daily lives.

What anti-ship & anti-aircraft weapons do you think they
have under development or already secretly deployed?

Little of consequence. China is barely developing blue water assets. It is incapable of fighting the US in blue water warfare. Russia as well. The only danger are their nukes.

Our "surgical" strikes could result in heavy losses for both sides.

Iran is incapable of attacking the US homeland. Neither China nor Russia will due to MAD.

How do you think Trump & war lusty Ameristanians would respond
to the death of noble Christian Ameristanian boys & girls by
those bearded & brown, ignorant foreign heathens?

With vengeance. Demonizing the enemy is part of conditioning and war propaganda

You imagine war proceeding according to plan.

No. Just the strikes. The overall plan is to create chaos not order.

I imagine war proceeding as history has demonstrated.

Such as?

China....the nuclear power with hypersonic (anti-ship) weapons in the works?
How would we blockade their country? Certainly not with billions of dollars
of aircraft carriers which would be doomed to become artificial reefs in the
South China Sea.

China is not going to nuke the US. Look up MAD. It would be suicide. China isn't run by religious fanatics but corrupt communists enjoying wealth via trade with the West.

Sherman's march was just one part of the Civil War.

Yes. Yet it worked far better than previous ideas.

China, Russia, & Iran have weaponry far more fell than did Johnny Reb.
But note also that the Civil War was Americastan's deadliest ever, with
more Ameristanians killed than any other, even WW2. Should we
intentionally relive that horror?

US still has the edge in technology. Neither China nor the Russia are going to get deeply involved in the war.

There's a political problem here.
When generals advocated doing that to Vietnam, even using nukes
to wipe out the "gooks", leadership deemed that unacceptable.

I am not advocating using nukes. I am advocating using 4th generation warfare strategy and tactics via air power.

If you got your way, & we actually started a scorched earth policy,
it would take time.

You are misinterpreting who is doing the scorching and in what way. Modern nations military and civil life rely upon modern technology and infrastructure. Grocery stores are not stocked with food for month but for a few days. Cities have millions of people. Take out the power grid would result in the population scorching it's own nation. Remember the US would be the aggressor not the defender. Scorch Earth works in favour of the defender.

And time is the enemy when a public is watching
pictures of naked children screaming from being napalmee.
Their initial resolve would wither, & it would become a war of half measures.
It would drag on until protests have some President try to save face
by slowly withdrawing (while prolonging the death & destruction)
until he (or she) can claim "Peace with honor".

This is another reason why current wars and conflicts won't actually end short of a revolution. The population has no stomach for war nor discomfort.

Keep in mind my overall point is that current tactics are not working. The US stamps out one fire just to have it pop up in the next nation as it wont attack or take major action against the suppliers of those conflicts.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
No you are conflating combat tactics....

We must agree to disagree about the efficacy, predictability, ethics, & utility of war.
(I couldn't quote your whole post because the quote feature is misbehaving.)
 

Saint Frankenstein

Gone
Premium Member
America really has no business policing other countries about nuclear weapons or power, since we're the only nation to actually use nukes on people. How hypocritical!
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
We can design all the special bombs we want.
This is also true of the enemy, who will develop new ones too.
This is one of the scariest aspects of the US warhawk's lack of perspective.

They are accustomed to seeing our military adventures as a spectator sport. Fortress America has always protected them from the fall out.
But weapons tech has "improved" greatly during the 20 years that Iran has been expecting and planning for this next assault by the USA. And Fortress America has sprung a few leaks.
How long would USonians want to fight Iran if their response included blowing up Wal-Marts and shopping centers, thereby making it unsafe to go shopping?
Tom
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
This is one of the scariest aspects of the US warhawk's lack of perspective.
Those furthest from the carnage of war are often the greatest advocates.
It looks so simple when politicians tell us how it will proceed.
But the ensuing starkly different reality will be lost in history.
History....the graveyard of learning.
The singular thing it teaches us is that history teaches us no lasting lessons.
They are accustomed to seeing our military adventures as a spectator sport. Fortress America has always protected them from the fall out.
But weapons tech has "improved" greatly during the 20 years that Iran has been expecting and planning for this next assault by the USA. And Fortress America has sprung a few leaks.
Tis hard to talk weapons technology with those who've never played the game.
They have our attack, & the enemies response all planned out.
But the latter might have a different plan, eh.
How long would USonians want to fight Iran if their response included blowing up Wal-Marts and shopping centers, thereby making it unsafe to go shopping?
There'd be initial fervor fueled by outrage.
But if it continued, they'd tire of it.
They wouldn't suddenly demand peace, but change would
come from political fallout of the Lyndon Johnson variety.
Then a nixonesque candidate would rise to our rescue.
Oh, joy.
 
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columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
*Cough* Libya.
Yeah, that was a total disaster of the sort the USA is famous for committing.

But we're talking about Iran in 2019, and yet another disaster we're angling to commit. And some people seem to think that this one will go well! Against a country that we turned into an enemy 40 years ago, launched a devastating war against in the 80s, and has been planning for this war for 20 years.

If you think that Iraq and Libya were disastrous, take a look at the Iran we are looking to attack.

Tom
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Nope it just wants to destroy Israel and subjugate the rest of the world if given a chance.
Who has launched all the best wars of the 21st century?
The USA.

No, it's the USA who wants to subjugate the rest of the world. Because that's what great Christian nations do, and have done for centuries.
Tom
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Who has launched all the best wars of the 21st century?
The USA.

We also launched Kenny G's greatest hits. Watch out world hes coming for you with his sultry smooth jazz!

No, it's the USA who wants to subjugate the rest of the world.

If that was true it would be done already. We have more ships and weaponry than Russia and China combined. There is no one big enough to stop us as is. The reason we haven't done it is because we are not that way. Vs Iran the only reason it isn't done yet is because they haven't the weapons.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Who has launched all the best wars of the 21st century?
The USA.

No, it's the USA who wants to subjugate the rest of the world. Because that's what great Christian nations do, and have done for centuries.
Tom
It's the white Christian's burden to make the world a better place....even if it kills them.
(Look at me....I sound all SJW, eh.)
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The reason we haven't done it is because we are not that way. Vs Iran the only reason it isn't done yet is because they haven't the weapons.
Actually, they do have the weapons.
That's why we haven't done it.
And China is rapidly advancing in that area.
In particular, it would be very dangerous to project naval & air
power in a threatening way. We're not prepared to fully counter
their capability to take out ships.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Actually, they do have the weapons.

They don't it's just a fact.

U.S. Military Spending vs. the World

Alone we spend more than Russia, China, and the next 4 countries COMBINED on the top 10 list of biggest military spenders.

That's why we haven't done it.

We haven't because we are not tyrants that want to rule the world. If we did want to rule the world, it would have been done already as we have the means already at hand.
 
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