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Interpretation that does not match

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is a good question to consider. Why did Jesus not command the baptism should be in the name of your brother? Each Christian's behavior should be a reflection of the one who caused the discipleship. I say God caused it. Christianity says the making of disciples caused it.

It is interesting to note that the Jehovah's Witnesses DO get baptized in the name of the Christian congregation whose job (they say) is to make disciples. Here:

The May 15, 1970 (p. 309) and May 1, 1973 (p. 280) issues printed slightly revised vows. The newest baptismal questions were set forth in the June 1, 1985 (p. 30) Watchtower:

(1) On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?

(2) Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization?

What are the baptismal vows, then and now? (1)

Baptismal Vows.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How is Jesus commanding the making of disciples NOT purposing two classes of people, one which is able and one which isn't able? Not everyone can make a disciple.

I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. John 10:16

That was a PERFECT opportunity to prove the making of disicples is a man's job. Why didn't he take the opportunity to say "They will listen to you"? Also if there are people who can actually make another person a proper disciple I suppose it can be said there are TWO flocks.

Why does Jesus say "they will listen to me"? What if the person who is trying HARD to make a disciple says something contrary to what Jesus says? How will the new one know?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
One shepherd? Absolutely not! Many shepherds. In fact anyone who wants to shepherd God's people is welcome to according to Jesus' command; Go! make disciples.
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
SW, Yes, "It is written". Matthew recorded, (28:18-20), "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:[/u[ and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

SW, It isn't the WAY which needs to be made right, but the wickedness of mankind.
Jesus said HE was the WAY for overcoming wickedness/sin--HIS Crucifixion.. And yes, HE is "GOD the son".
"Disciples" are the followers of the "Teacher"---which is perpetual--from teacher to pupil. And commanded by Jesus.

Absolutely not!

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever John 14:16

By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.John 7:39

When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father--the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father--he will testify about me. John 15:26

As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him. 1 John 2:27


These scipture do not say perpetually from disicple to disicple. It is always to disciple from Spirit.

Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.Rev 3:20

You are an advocate for all the false teachers.

SW Why are you ignoring the red/underlined above? John is the only writer using "parakletos" and it has two meanings/usages--4x as "comforter" and 1X as 'advacate" as seen In 1John 2:1.(and there it refers to Jesus Christ).

The "perpetual" was in the sense that the "pupil/disciple has learned from the previous disciple/now teacher the "Whatsoever I have told you"/those true principles which Jesus heard and taught HIS Disciples which were from the FATHER.
Even the "Parakletos"/Holy Spirit, will bring to mind "whatsoever I have said unto you". John14:26.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
SW, Yes, "It is written". Matthew recorded, (28:18-20), "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:[/u[ and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

SW, It isn't the WAY which needs to be made right, but the wickedness of mankind.
Jesus said HE was the WAY for overcoming wickedness/sin--HIS Crucifixion.. And yes, HE is "GOD the son".
"Disciples" are the followers of the "Teacher"---which is perpetual--from teacher to pupil. And commanded by Jesus.



SW Why are you ignoring the red/underlined above? John is the only writer using "parakletos" and it has two meanings/usages--4x as "comforter" and 1X as 'advacate" as seen In 1John 2:1.(and there it refers to Jesus Christ).

The "perpetual" was in the sense that the "pupil/disciple has learned from the previous disciple/now teacher the "Whatsoever I have told you"/those true principles which Jesus heard and taught HIS Disciples which were from the FATHER.
Even the "Parakletos"/Holy Spirit, will bring to mind "whatsoever I have said unto you". John14:26.


Actually I am not. YOU have ignored EVERYTHING I have said which I didn't think is possible. I have not said Jesus didn't say TEACH. TEACH and MAKE are NOT the same. Look them up for goodness sakes.
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
Yes he said "to teach" but we do not teach "to make" disciples.

Please stop embarrassing yourself equating teach to make. oh but it's not embarrassing when everyone else does it! Really?
"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed." Rev 16:15

As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another. Proverbs 27:17

According to the Proverb does one person MAKE another??????? Or sharpen another? The other one is already iron. GOD makes disciples. How????? People listen to the preaching. Preaching doesn't make people into disciples. The Spirit of God makes them. It is why we are not baptised into the name of Brother but of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Not flesh.

Christianty says "make iron iron" NO! He said "make iron sharp".

SW, Matt.10:6-8, Jesus sent out the Disciples and said, "...go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach(teach), saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give."

Jesus said in Luke 24:46-48, "And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things."

The plan of Salvation would be of no value to anyone if there were NOT HEARERS AND DOERS OF THE TRUTHS OF GOD.
Yes, humans are the sowers of the seeds and the waterers of the plants as needed(along with the Holy Spirit), but it is the Holy Spirit who convicts the hearts and minds of the Truths of GOD.
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
I see. Two thousand years of custom can't be wrong.

Can it?

Not forsaking the gathering of yourselves together as some have the custom.

What does as some have custom mean? Might it mean trusting in something not true? I am not allowed by the Spirit of The Truth to gather to people who believe lies. Are you?

another question please.

You say two thousand years of believing God wants the making of disciples can't be wrong. It has been Chrisianity's custom for so long it must be right.

OK What about this custom of Israel?

They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. Matthew 23:4

How long was it believed by leaders of Israel that way was the right way? I am going to guess more than two thousand years. Am I right?

SW, What is correct? The writings published in the "Watchtower" and approved by the "Governing Body" OR What is inspired by GOD to those prophets of HIS and the teachings of Jesus as recorded?.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
SW, Matt.10:6-8, Jesus sent out the Disciples and said, "...go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach(teach), saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give."

Jesus said in Luke 24:46-48, "And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things."

The plan of Salvation would be of no value to anyone if there were NOT HEARERS AND DOERS OF THE TRUTHS OF GOD.
Yes, humans are the sowers of the seeds and the waterers of the plants as needed(along with the Holy Spirit), but it is the Holy Spirit who convicts the hearts and minds of the Truths of GOD.
OK I believe you. But you won't let go of the fact he didn't command making people disciples. I have my opinion why you won't but why not tell me?

He never said go preach for making diciples. Preaching is for a witness.

How many disciples did Noah make?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
SW, What is correct? The writings published in the "Watchtower" and approved by the "Governing Body" OR What is inspired by GOD to those prophets of HIS and the teachings of Jesus as recorded?.

OK. You seem to say the JWs might have changed some things. Is it possible? Why is it not possible someone changed "Disciple the nations" which means the many words you have told me on this thread to "make people disicples" which Jesus didn't say?
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
SW, What is correct? The writings published in the "Watchtower" and approved by the "Governing Body" OR What is inspired by GOD to those prophets of HIS and the teachings of Jesus as recorded?.

OK. You seem to say the JWs might have changed some things. Is it possible? Why is it not possible someone changed "Disciple the nations" which means the many words you have told me on this thread to "make people disicples" which Jesus didn't say?

SW, A disciple is a learner/pupil of a teacher. That is the meaning of the Greek="mathetes". Jesus' disciples learned(were taught) from Jesus for 3 1/2 years and then were sent out to preach/teach(taught) the "nations". Those learners from their teachers presented the "Everlasting Gospel" to their "pupils/students/disciples and those would continue "giving"/teaching the "everlasting Gospel" to still others and so it has been since Jesus said, "GO ye and tell the "Whatsoever I have told you".
The Hebrew="limmuwd" has the same meanings (Isa.8:16; 54:13)

Again, Whose writing are you trusting---the inspired word of GOD or the "authority" of the "Governing Body" and their publications" which your don't agree with in your postings?

People "covenant" with GOD to be HIS people in Repenting and submitting.

sw said:
OK I believe you. But you won't let go of the fact he didn't command making people disciples. I have my opinion why you won't but why not tell me?

He never said go preach for making disciples. Preaching is for a witness.

How many disciples did Noah make?

Those who believe have been "witnessed to" and are the next teachers. Those who refuse to believe have that witness(the teachings) as their 'judge'.
(John 5:45-47), "Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?"
The Scriptures are a witness/Teacher.

How many believed Noah? However, his message was to repent and come aboard at the correct time.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
SW, What is correct? The writings published in the "Watchtower" and approved by the "Governing Body" OR What is inspired by GOD to those prophets of HIS and the teachings of Jesus as recorded?.



SW, A disciple is a learner/pupil of a teacher. That is the meaning of the Greek="mathetes". Jesus' disciples learned(were taught) from Jesus for 3 1/2 years and then were sent out to preach/teach(taught) the "nations". Those learners from their teachers presented the "Everlasting Gospel" to their "pupils/students/disciples and those would continue "giving"/teaching the "everlasting Gospel" to still others and so it has been since Jesus said, "GO ye and tell the "Whatsoever I have told you".
The Hebrew="limmuwd" has the same meanings (Isa.8:16; 54:13)

Again, Whose writing are you trusting---the inspired word of GOD or the "authority" of the "Governing Body" and their publications" which your don't agree with in your postings?

People "covenant" with GOD to be HIS people in Repenting and submitting.

It's not either or. MANY Bibles say Jesus words are "Go. Make disciples".

Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

New International Version
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

New Living Translation
Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

English Standard Version
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

New American Standard Bible
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

King James Bible
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

International Standard Version
Therefore, as you go, disciple people in all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit,

NET Bible
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,


GOD'S WORD® Translation
So wherever you go, make disciples of all nations: Baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

King James 2000 Bible
Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit:

American King James Version
Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

American Standard Version
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:

Douay-Rheims Bible
Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Darby Bible Translation
Go [therefore] and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit;

English Revised Version
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost:

Webster's Bible Translation
Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Weymouth New Testament
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations; baptize them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit;

World English Bible
Go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Young's Literal Translation
having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them -- to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,

Even the ones which do not say MAKE say for you to go and not what Jesus says "I go".
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
It's not either or. MANY Bibles say Jesus words are "Go. Make disciples".

Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

New International Version
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

New Living Translation
Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

English Standard Version
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

New American Standard Bible
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

King James Bible
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

International Standard Version
Therefore, as you go, disciple people in all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit,

NET Bible
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,


GOD'S WORD® Translation
So wherever you go, make disciples of all nations: Baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

King James 2000 Bible
Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit:

American King James Version
Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

American Standard Version
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:

Douay-Rheims Bible
Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Darby Bible Translation
Go [therefore] and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit;

English Revised Version
Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost:

Webster's Bible Translation
Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Weymouth New Testament
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations; baptize them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit;

World English Bible
Go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Young's Literal Translation
having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them -- to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,

Even the ones which do not say MAKE say for you to go and not what Jesus says "I go".

SW, where is the source for your:
Even the ones which do not say MAKE say for you to go and not what Jesus says "I go".
???
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
SW, where is the source for your: ???

I have no source but it makes SENSE. I (The leader and the lord) am going so YOU be me. Did Jesus make disciples?????? It is a lie to say he did.

Please know the word MAKE

form (something) by putting parts together or combining substances; construct; create; cause (something) to exist or come about; bring about.

Do you have another definition of "make" (which word isn't even in there)???? It is μαθητεύσατε which if you click on it here: Matthew 28:19 Greek Text Analysis to get yourself here: Greek Concordance: ??????????? (math?teusate) -- 1 Occurrence
It can't be compared to anything. Something so important to do, actually the life of the believer and the unbeliever who should become a believer is ONLY MENTIONED ONCE??????

If people can make disciples God surely can! God does. If it is what life is about WHY ISN'T EVERYONE made a disciple? Why?

The text as is says people can make disciples. Can they? Then why so few true disciples? In fact why no disciples doing miracles? Why do no disciples (forgot one, Thief) talking in parables?

Question: If the difficult thing of making someone else a disciple of life and truth can be accomplished by humans, it would be SO EASY for God to do it. Why does not God do it? Tell me please why The Lord does not make everyone a disciple. Is it because discipleship isn't made?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So I looked up "go" and the translator was right not to apply it to Jesus' going because when he was alive and said he was going it was a different word used. So he is making it very difficult. But he had died when the words "having gone therefore disciple" were said to be have heard. When he was alive he said the future tense of "going" but the words of Matthew 28:19 use the past tense. It isn't the same word. So I have no source sorry :shrug: but of course I should mention your source is human. My conclusion I got by thought.

Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will. Romans 12:2

For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you. We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives Colossians 1:9

Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. Ephesians 5:17

understand does not mean hear to know. It means comprehend.
Greek Concordance: ??????? (syniete) -- 4 Occurrences

"mind" Romans 12:2 mind, understanding.
Probably from the base of ginosko; the intellect, i.e. Mind (divine or human; in thought, feeling, or will); by implication, meaning -- mind, understanding. Compare psuche.

Tell me using Colossians 1:9 that I am able to make a disciple for Jesus please.

You "hear" and obey Jesus says "make disciples". I "understand" disciples are not made. Your source is human. My source isn't.
 
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Your source is your thought. You are human. You have no source, either canonical, extra-canonical, from tradition or even pious legend. You cannot just make things up.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Colossians 1:9. Does anyone agree with me that a disciple is a disciple by God and Spirit? But Jesus says it is by disciples that a person becomes a disciple.
Please let me know how a new disciple of Jesus can fill another person up with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives.

A new one can't? How about an old one? As a matter of fact no one really can do it unless he "endures to the end" because that is when a person is saved according to the same book that says disciple making is a Christians's job.

Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved Matthew 24:11-13

According to Matthew 21 here the closer we get to that day the fewer disciples will be made because "love will grow cold". Will God's love grow cold?
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Your source is your thought. You are human. You have no source, either canonical, extra-canonical, from tradition or even pious legend. You cannot just make things up.

Ah! Funny! OK. So nothing can be believed because EVERYTHING is "made up". Isn't it?

What isn't made up that I can believe in?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So to be believed a Bible scripture must go to committee. That would be a human committe I guess. Then the human decision of the meaning of it must be printed and copied. And copied again, translated and copied and go through some more human committees and then what comes out I should believe and obey better than listening to my own mind because..... why is that?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is a real question needing an answer. What isn't made up that I can believe in?

Here's another one. Why is it against Christian law to listen to my own conscience?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is no drawing application on RF. Is there?
What would I draw? Good question! I would draw minds. Someones' minds came up with meaning. Their meaning was right because their meaning came before my meaning. See? I have meaning but it isn't the same as their meaning which is written. Thanks be to RF mine is now written also, but for some reason (and this is what I would try to draw) their reason is right and mine is wrong. I suppose it is like wine. (no) brandy. Is it brandy? Aged alcohol. Only the stuff which has been sitting long enough is good.

New? Not good. I don't expect mine to sit around long enough. Even if I wrote a book. Don't doubt that I have not thought of it.

So like I said once before, if Jesus came to tell us what it really says you wouldn't believe him. Why? It is because you have the custom to believe in your fathers more than the freedom to believe The Father. And does a scripture come to my mind. uh ha.

And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Matthew 23:35

WHY did he say that? They believe the lies their fathers believed in.
 
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