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INTERNET FIREARM SALES ATF Enforcement Efforts and Outcomes of GAO Covert Testing

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Yep pretty boring.

They were investigating how easy it is to buy weapons illegally on the net (both surface and deep web).

Out of 72 attempts to purchase on the surface web 59 of those attempts failed.

So 13 successful attempts on the surface web at buying guns without proper procedures followed. I didn't download the PDFs so I am not sure of the 13 successful attempts at what type of weapons purchased (semi-auto, full auto, etc).

That is higher than I expected. Which means roughly 18% of gun sales on the surface web are potentially illegal. I expected about 10% so while it is higher it's not grossly over what was expected.

Of the 7 attempts at purchasing on the deep web. 2 we're successful. A fully automatic modified ar-15 and and Uzi.

Which results in a 29% success rate at purchasing illegal weapons on the deep web. Which is lower than I expected, but they did obtain fully automatic weapons with no registration, background checks, or paper trails.

You have about 50/50 chance at buying illegal firearms person to person. But if you are not successful it's probably because you were shot on sight for being suspicious. Gun runners don't like a lot of questions or questionable behavior, they would as soon shoot you and walk away than take the chance of getting busted.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
Yep pretty boring.

They were investigating how easy it is to buy weapons illegally on the net (both surface and deep web).

Out of 72 attempts to purchase on the surface web 59 of those attempts failed.

So 13 successful attempts on the surface web at buying guns without proper procedures followed. I didn't download the PDFs so I am not sure of the 13 successful attempts at what type of weapons purchased (semi-auto, full auto, etc).

That is higher than I expected. Which means roughly 18% of gun sales on the surface web are potentially illegal. I expected about 10% so while it is higher it's not grossly over what was expected.

Of the 7 attempts at purchasing on the deep web. 2 we're successful. A fully automatic modified ar-15 and and Uzi.

Which results in a 29% success rate at purchasing illegal weapons on the deep web. Which is lower than I expected, but they did obtain fully automatic weapons with no registration, background checks, or paper trails.

You have about 50/50 chance at buying illegal firearms person to person. But if you are not successful it's probably because you were shot on sight for being suspicious. Gun runners don't like a lot of questions or questionable behavior, they would as soon shoot you and walk away than take the chance of getting busted.

I think you better re-read the report because your statement is 100% wrong concerning the "Surface Web"
From: https://www.gao.gov/assets/690/688535.pdf Page 21&22 of the report
Our covert testing involving GAO agents attempting to purchase firearms
illegally on the Surface Web were unsuccessful.

This is how misleading information is promulgated.
 
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Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
I think you better re-read the report because your statement is 100% wrong concerning the "Surface Web"
From: https://www.gao.gov/assets/690/688535.pdf Page 21&22 of the report


This is how misleading information is promulgated.

Ah I see. Excellent, the surface web performed much better than I guessed it would. Glad to see people actually being law abiding citizens. Except for the scammers haha! Good news thanks!
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
They should browse online classifieds and meet up with people publicly. I wonder the success rate in that.

Fact of the matter, more guns = more gun violence. Video games, movies, etc have nothing to do with it. 1st world countries with tighter gun laws have video games, movies, etc. Guess what's missing?

If people are buying used guns illegally, which responsible gun owner purchased that weapon legally and how did that gun end up in the wrong hands?
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
I think you better re-read the report because your statement is 100% wrong concerning the "Surface Web"
From: https://www.gao.gov/assets/690/688535.pdf Page 21&22 of the report


This is how misleading information is promulgated.
Wrong. The GAO tests on the surface web intentionally led the seller to believe the transaction would be illegal. Intentionally letting the seller know the buyer is prohibited from owning a firearm.

You'd see different results if that wasn't the case.
 

Stanyon

WWMRD?
The GAO tests on the surface web intentionally led the seller to believe the transaction would be illegal. Intentionally letting the seller know the buyer is prohibited from owning a firearm.

Of course, that is because they would intentionally be breaking the law if they knowingly sold it to them. There are a number of gun sites on the internet which sell to individuals but in all transactions the firearm has to be transferred to an FFL holder and the buyer has to complete the ATF form 4473 Firearms Transaction Record and be able to pass the background check before transfer. It is a common tactic by those opposed to firearms to use the free for all wild west argument as if individuals and gun owners and sellers are just handing these things out like candy at a parade but it simply isn't the case, whether it is an intentional lie or just plain ignorance of the law either way it is a false narrative.

As far as personal transfer, This is the ATF rules for it in a Q&A format:

download

"Transferring/Shipping/Possession of Firearms: 4. May I lawfully transfer a firearm to an individual who resides in a different State? What if the individual resides within the same State? Under Federal law, an unlicensed individual is prohibited from transferring a firearm to an individual who does not reside in the State where the transferee resides. Generally, for a person to lawfully transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of State, the firearm must be shipped to a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) within the recipient’s State of residence. He or she may then receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a NICS background check. More information can be obtained on the ATF website at www.atf.gov and Unlicensed Persons | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. The GCA provides an exception from this prohibition for temporary loans or rentals of firearms for lawful sporting purposes. For example, a friend visiting you may borrow a firearm from you to go hunting. Another exception is provided for transfers of firearms to nonresidents to carry out a lawful bequest or acquisition by intestate succession. This exception would authorize the transfer of a firearm to a nonresident who inherits a firearm under a will or by State law upon death of the owner. See 18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(5)(A). In regard to transferring firearms between individuals residing in the same state, any person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of the State where he resides as long as he or she does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. Please note that there may be State and local laws that regulate firearm transactions. Any person considering acquiring or transferring a firearm should contact his or her State Attorney General’s Office to inquire about the laws and possible State or local firearms restrictions. A list of State Attorney General contact numbers may be found at
NAAG | NAAG. "
 
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Stanyon

WWMRD?
Ah I see. Excellent, the surface web performed much better than I guessed it would. Glad to see people actually being law abiding citizens. Except for the scammers haha! Good news thanks!

They would be idiots not to abide by the law, they could lose their license, get hefty fines, and possibly end up in prison if they didn't.

guncard.pdf

"I. POSSESSION OF A FIREARM OR AMMUNITION BY A PROHIBITED PERSON: 18 USC § 922(g) & (n). Punishable by up to 10 years imprisonment. May receive minimum sentence of 15 years without parole if offender has three or more prior convictions for a felony crime of violence (e.g. burglary, robbery, assault, possession of offensive weapons) and/or drug trafficking felony. Elements A. Possession or receipt of a firearm or ammunition; B. By a subject who falls within one of the following categories: Felon - (Additionally, persons awaiting trial on felony charges are prohibited from receiving firearms.); Drug user or addict - (Often shown where paraphernalia seized, subject tests positive for drugs and/or subject claims drugs were possessed for personal use.); Alien - (Includes illegal aliens and aliens lawfully admitted under non-immigrant visas, i.e., those aliens not admitted for permanent residence. This provision does not prohibit aliens who lawfully possess a so-called “green card” from possessing guns or ammunition.); Is subject to a domestic restraining order - (The order must prohibit contact with an intimate partner, or child of the subject, and must have been issued only after a hearing of which the subject was notified and at which the subject had an opportunity to participate. The order must also find the subject poses a threat to the physical safety of the intimate partner or child or must prohibit the use, threatened use or attempted use of physical force.); Has a prior conviction for domestic assault - (Includes a prior conviction for any assault or threatened use of a deadly weapon against a present or former spouse or partner or child or guardian of any such person. The subject must have been entitled to a jury trial and been represented by counsel in the prior proceeding or be shown to have waived those rights.); Fugitive from justice - (Fled any state to avoid being prosecuted or to avoid testifying in any criminal proceeding.); or Dishonorably discharged from the military; AND C. The firearm or ammunition was transported across a state line at any time.

II. KNOWINGLY SELL, GIVE OR OTHERWISE DISPOSE OF ANY FIREARM OR AMMUNITION TO ANY PERSON WHO FALLS WITHIN ONE OF THE ABOVE CATEGORIES: 18 USC § 922(d). Punishable by up to 10 years imprisonment."
 

Stanyon

WWMRD?
Of the 7 attempts at purchasing on the deep web. 2 we're successful. A fully automatic modified ar-15 and and Uzi.
Which results in a 29% success rate at purchasing illegal weapons on the deep web. Which is lower than I expected, but they did obtain fully automatic weapons with no registration, background checks, or paper trails.

I'm not sure the "deep web" really matters in this, apparently it's a place where you can get child porn, drugs, and a lot of other things that are completely illegal in most countries in the world- some of which carry the death sentence for possession. I'd liken it to being approached by someone on the street asking you if you wanted to buy some watches and has them in a paper sack, or worse being told where you can find a guy that sells watches from paper sacks and then actively seeking them out. I don't think it would be that far fetched for a reasonable person to conclude that the watches are probably stolen and the person selling them is probably a thief.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
I'm not sure the "deep web" really matters in this, apparently it's a place where you can get child porn, drugs, and a lot of other things that are completely illegal in most countries in the world- some of which carry the death sentence for possession. I'd liken it to being approached by someone on the street asking you if you wanted to buy some watches and has them in a paper sack, or worse being told where you can find a guy that sells watches from paper sacks and then actively seeking them out. I don't think it would be that far fetched for a reasonable person to conclude that the watches are probably stolen and the person selling them is probably a thief.

Yeah that what the deep web is. A place for illegal stuff. You can pay to watch people be tortured and murdered as well.
 

Stanyon

WWMRD?
Yeah that what the deep web is. A place for illegal stuff. You can pay to watch people be tortured and murdered as well.
You can see all that for free on narco blogs and places like bestgore, it never ceases to amaze me how creative the human animal can be when it comes to inflicting pain and suffering on each other.
 
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