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Featured International Court of Moderate Abrahamic Religious Leaders

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Lionel Refson, Jun 25, 2019.

  1. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    As I posted on another thread........
    Three points to make. One is that no one faith can take the lead in any reform which means that something else must take a lead for reform to happen.

    Secondly if religions do not vet themselves soon I imagine that Governments might step in a la Muslims Recoil at a French Proposal to Change the Quran
    Islam might be the first target but there will be an insistence on other religions as well I imagine, in the end at least . This may well work in Europe and citizens living in Europe might well accept this for societal cohesion if for no other reason.

    Thirdly why not include in every religious book, for the divisive verses at least , the relevant verses of the other abrahamic faiths plus a commentary ie a move to a unification of the religious books.
     
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  2. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue "We know gravity by happenstance."

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    OK, so you do not understand the Bible or really believe it. Have a nice day.
     
  3. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    Ok, so what is your take on this particular part?
     
  4. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise

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    Geez, mate. Restricting religious freedom is basically the same thing as religious people imposing morality onto secular law. Religious freedoms are recognised as human rights these days.
    I have no love for extremists of any kind. And sure, very extreme ideologies (religious or otherwise) should be kept on a leash for the benefit of society as a whole. And usually are in modern society. I mean we don’t generally let the KKK lynch people, but they can march and yell and hold meetings or whatever.

    But people have to live their own lives. With their own self imposed restrictions. That is a basic human right.
    As long as my Muslim neighbour doesn’t try to take away my bourbon or bacon, they can abstain from it all they please.
     
  5. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    Where did I say that restricting religious freedom should be undertaken.
    I guess we face a different situation in Europe
    let us randomly pick a verse from the Koran

    Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

    How do you think a moderate Muslim, never mind a christian or a Jew feels when this verse is quoted at him by another religion, or used by ISIS to justify their murderous rampage?

    Then consider the verses with words that ruin lives with religious guilt and fear, fire and brimstone hell etc ? in Christianity, Islam, Judaism
     
  6. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise

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    And Christians and I assume Jews since if I’m not mistaken this is from the OT, have similar verses.
    So what?
    If you’re talking about “taming” (for lack of a better word) the Abrahamics, then we already technically do that. We don’t allow people to stone rebellious kids to death, as commanded in some choice verses from the OT, after all,
    Nor do we allow the stoning of rape victims or lighting widows on fire or whatever.
    Most religions have had to make concessions in the modern world. That’s just life, I guess.
    Tell me that a religion has a verse in its scripture that offends modern sensibilities and I probably couldn’t even muster the energy for a pretend shocked Pikachu face. Because that’s just par for the course, as far as I’m concerned. And that’s okay. Many scriptures are old. Meh.

    But you’re literally proposing some kind of world order nonsense. No way that’s going to fly.
     
    #26 SomeRandom, Jun 28, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2019
  7. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    I am willing to bet that it will lead to a ressurgence of conflicts with (and among) Muslims.

    Don't get me wrong. I am all for it. But there are tensions that must be faced at some point.
     
  8. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue "We know gravity by happenstance."

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    Jesus prayed to his heavenly Father that his disciples would be one, just as he and the Father were one. Noah was a man of faith. So was Jesus. John 17:20-22 -
    20 I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their message,
    21 that all of them may be one, as you, Father are in me, and I am in you. May they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you sent me.
    22 I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.
     
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  9. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    A shocked pikachu face? Then you have not been the target of violent anti-semitism as I have, you have not watched israelis and arabs fight with knives over a row about God. You haven't lost an eye, like a muslim acquaintance I knew did, over his religion. You haven't tried to committ suicide because you are gay and your bible-bashing father won't tolerate that etc etc ............or maybe you have ? The point is we live in a secular society and these crusty old verses need revising as they have been over the aeons. People can believe what they like but what is written, should be revised imo on the lines of my op.

    Oh you are so right! But a mountain can only be moved a step at a time ...Kung Fu panda

    As ONE, exactly!!
     
  10. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

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    Why would you exclude leaders of other religions from that court? They have all suffered from the ways those scriptures have been used. Why should they have no part in deciding what to change, remove, or re-interpret?

    Apart from that, even with only Jews, Christians and Muslims, that court might decide to change, remove or re-interpret some or all of Genesis before 9:19. Would you have any objections to that?
     
  11. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    No provided the court was reminded of the significance to the whole world of Gen 9:7
    All our ancestors, the ancestors of muslims, christians and jews satanists and atheists and hindus and bahai
    etc etc
     
  12. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue "We know gravity by happenstance."

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    He prayed his disciples would be united. That is what 'one' means to me. Just as the Bible says a married couple is to be considered as one, not two. He asked that his disciples would be as ONE, not in disunity with various ideas and factions. Not fighting among the many who call themselves Christians as we see is happening in the world today and in the past.
     
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  13. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    This is what I did, how I got to where I got to. I allowed my child- like self, who thought God beautiful, wondrous and kind, and took yet another look at the Bible. I started it in 2000, when I broke free from Falun Gong and returned to the teachings of my strictish jewish upbringing, which I rejected and started to think for myself again )spent years studying the tao and buddhism before)
    I started to read and held my child like heart (see jesus's verse about children, in matthew) in wonder. But I also remembered to switch on my rational adult thinking brain and kept both in mind at the same time
    So every time I thought "God, that was cruel", or "God that was nasty of you", or "what and why why did you drown, what you drowned and also create the nephilim I stopped at the question and reminded myself I was NOT looking for a human I was looking for GOD, Perfection, omnipotent, omniscient, all-knowing all-'seeing divine the ONE,
    So whatever the question I could find a feasible explanation for it. And there are many, some very hard for us to understand, In the end I found what I found. It is on here

    I really really want to know if others can come to the same conclusion as I have, because the way I broke free from Falun Gong (truth compassion forebearance) was remembering that. at that time all I ever truly had in my heart was God. Now I have wifey and kiddies
    I had known long before falun gong that God could not possibly be on this world, given the horrors we have witnessed for centuries, so I retraced my steps and got there.

    Of course I may not have found God at all, I might have found, myself....and this is why I did this thread, You can help me by doing what I did Think of your first-born son/daughter in your hands, and the others that you have had , for the first time if you want to understand what child-like wonder really is ...or remember the love you had for your mum or dad , or grandad to recapture this child-like wonder
    What is that quote again Matthew 18:2-3 And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

    But without your rational mind switched on as well, you will lose that love quickly. So find the solution, ie the most feasible possibility, whether humanity can accept that or not.

    IT IS ALL MY OPINION..mods

    Does anyone reach the same conclusion as me . If so I have a view of how an inarguable belief like this can help the sort of people I've been banging on about all over the place
     
    #33 Lionel Refson, Jun 28, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2019
  14. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise

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    Well that’s terrible.
    And yeah People are screwed over by religious jerks all the time. It sucks. But forcing change just causes more issues and resistance. In civilised society we tend to cause change through societal pressure and laws forbidding harm.
     
  15. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue "We know gravity by happenstance."

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    OK, so here is part of my impression. While I certainly do not and cannot understand everything in the Bible, here is how I understand the Flood (in part). Right now we are born to die. That is what it says in the Bible to a degree, maybe not in those exact words, but according to Genesis, Adam and Eve were created in that they could have had everlasting life if they obeyed God. My question to you at this point (before I even touch upon the Flood) is: Do you believe that part of the Bible, in other words, do you believe that Adam and Eve could have continued living IF they did not eat from the tree of knowledge that God told them not to eat from? That part is crucial, in my opinion, to understanding and recognizing what the rest of the Bible means. So before we get into the Flood, first we need to recognize what God told Adam about not eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Without that, nothing else in the Bible really can be understood.
     
  16. Jim

    Jim Nets of Wonder

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    Some of what you’re saying resonates with me. A sense of what’s good and right that you trust more than any scriptures, and a light that you see in Genesis through 9:19. You see that sense of what’s good and right as love for the God that you see in Genesis through 9:19. In this post I’ll call that sense “love of God.” The God in the rest of the Bible can not be that God. It might be something invented and perpetuated by some people to intimidate and fool others into doing what they want, however harmful it might be. Wherever it came from, that’s how it’s used. Apart from Genesis through 9:19, the Bible and the Quran are used to fool multitudes of people into doing things that serve some people’s interests at the expense of others, and grievously and needlessly so. Whatever light there might be in the Bible and the Quran is all in Genesis through 9:19.

    You think that the religious court that you’re proposing would make it harder for people to use the Bible and the Quran to intimidate and fool people into doing things that are harmful.

    Does that look like what you’re trying to say, more or less?
     
  17. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    Not sure what you mean. They did continue living, after eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, after they were banished. They could no longer get access to the Tree of Life, ie immortality, which is what they lost. IMO if they had not eaten from the forbidden tree, they would have remained in paradise

    My take on it is in something I wrote for something else ie

    Adam and Eve
    God made man and woman and wished to give them freewill i.e. the right and ability to make choices, otherwise they would have been as slaves. You can’t descend from heaven and just give your people free-will, their awe of you will make them instant slaves. God wanted to give Adam and Eve freewill, wanted them to be free. He warned them not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, on pain of death BUT being perfect as we have already posited, God surely knew they would disobey.. God had sent one of His creations to offer the other choice to Eve i.e. to have knowledge of good and evil and all that entailed, and the serpent made it an enticing choice, to know what is good and what is not.

    Eve made her choice and the exit from the garden was not a punishment, it was our choice. We chose to be free of the simple life and instead chose a much more arduous and yet more fulfilling path than just tending animals in the Garden. We were not tricked. We obtained what we wanted and still do, we obtained knowledge and self-awareness. i.e. before the decision was made Adam and Eve like animals, had no knowledge of themselves, no ability to see themselves. Like animals they were unable to stand outside themselves and view themselves objectively. We humans have been given that gift. No person is able to give another interpretation in keeping with the idea of God as perfection. God didn’t tempt Adam and Eve. For what purpose would he do that if God already knew, being so all-seeing that they would disobey? Utter illogical nonsense!

    Yet that is what we have been taught for centuries. Why would we assume that God is either flawed or not so powerful? There is only one vaguely relevant counter –argument to the logic and it goes like this “The Lord works in mysterious ways” That is a very weak and useless argument. Another question one could ask is Why God, who could have created perfection did not make us perfect. The answer is simple. In the garden of Eden, we had perfection, no worries, fear, stress, dangers and so on but we chose freewill and self-awareness. We chose the world we now live in. We have freewill and that means we are not beholden nor ruled by a higher power. We have self-awareness which means we are aware of ourselves and the world around us. Unlike an animal which is set on a simple system of surviving i.e. by eating, sleeping defecating and procreating, we humans, should have no the fear of being controlled and because of self-awareness we have higher minds and more complex thought processes.

    Our understanding of ourselves and our species grows ever deeper; because we have the capacity to study it. Freewill and self-awareness are two gifts from our Creator to us and religion has stolen these from us, telling us how to worship, and how to think of God.

    Gen 2:17
    But of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat of it, for on the day that you eat thereof, you shall surely die.

    This is a threat, but also can read as you will lose your immortality.
    If it is a threat then Adam and Eve's disobedience was not punished, God showed mercy and at the same time the choice we made to have freewill was taken even with the "proverbial gun" pointed at their heads. It had to be a severe enough threat to make any sense of the enormity of the choice.. Humanity wanted to know even on pain of death!

    If it is a warning that they would begin the process of dying, which imo I do not think it is then the end result is still the same ie the choice we made to have freewill was taken even with the "proverbial gun" pointed at their heads, though this time it was the threat of losing immortality. IMO

     
  18. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue "We know gravity by happenstance."

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    So you agree that they were banished from the Garden of Eden, or the paradise, and that they would eventually die rather than keep living.
    Here is what the Bible says: "And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”
    (Genesis 2:16)
     
  19. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    Yes!
     
  20. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue "We know gravity by happenstance."

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    And, according to the Bible, every human being descended from Adam and Eve. And, all of their offspring were born outside of the Garden. Or Gan Eden.
     
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