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International citizenship

Discussion in 'The Material World' started by Conscious thoughts, Feb 23, 2021.

  1. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    An international agreement on how to handle benefits and duties.
    Otherwise international citizenship might be seen as just an attempt to escape the draft and taxes.
     
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  2. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Yes, I do. Our tribalism is firmly ensconced in our psyches. We revel in it. If no tribes exist we invent them. What do you think sports teams are?
    We remain well dressed, killer apes, at heart.

    But the tribalism that served us well a million years ago has become dysfunctional in a diverse, supra-Dunbar society.
    Tribes are naturally antagonistic. We must be aware of this. We must fight it or divert it into harmless enterprises. Unchecked, it leads to no end of violence, prejudice and war. It's a social pathology.
     
  3. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    This my friend:

    The oneness of the kingdom of humanity will supplant the banner of conquest, and all communities of the earth will gather under its protection. No nation with separate and restricted boundaries — such as Persia, for instance — will exist. The United States of America will be known only as a name. Germany, France, England, Turkey, Arabia — all these various nations will be welded together in unity. When the people of the future are asked, “To which nationality do you belong?” the answer will be, “To the nationality of humanity…” The people of the future will not say, “I belong to the nation of England, France or Persia”; for all of them will be citizens of a universal nationality — the one family, the one country, the one world of humanity — and then these wars, hatreds and strifes will pass away. –

    Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 18.
     
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  4. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Wouldn't a cosmopolitan pay taxes wherever s/he lived and worked? And the draft? Why would anyone want to kill his brothers and sisters? Wouldn't refusing that be the moral thing to do?
     
  5. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Escaping the draft: good for them. I'll never fault someone for trying to avoid being enslaved.

    Escaping taxes: tax obligations are usually based on residency or where income is earned, not citizenship.
     
  6. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    You'd need to take away the animosity between nations. You know what though, nations like each other a lot more than we used to. Maybe there could be a few people granted international citizenship. I think that currently the global system of all nations might be willing to approve some. For example you might succeed in having all nations honor all blind people as international citizens or all deaf or all nobel laureates or all gold medal olympic winners. I don't think just anyone would be accepted, but a small group of distinguished people, people who can't be suspected of being spies, people whose lives are clearly dedicated to apolitical things....

    What about starting with a UN opt-in for nations which will consider certain people as international citizens such as...blind people? Some nations might like this, and then perhaps you could get an increasing number of nations to sign on eventually building a basis for international citizenship.
     
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  7. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    You usually don't just have obligations to your country of which you have a passport but you also have benefits. Many have social security fees but they also pay a fair retirement pension. And one part of your duties in exchange for your pension is military or civilian service in many countries. Dodging the draft seems unfair to the community (though I'd prefer a free choice of military or civilian service).
    And for an international citizenship it would be nice to have some balance between countries of residency like, for example, an international pension fund.
     
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  8. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    I'm not in favour of any sort of slavery, whether military or civilian. Any sort of compulsory draft is abhorrent.

    A draft is not just another form of tax.
     
  9. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    The EU plan is to unite countries through common currency and growing political unity following that. Possibly plans are in the works to follow that on the global scale. Then you could see your global citizenship, possibly through membership in a global bank.

    Currently the big banks are looking at the EU and bitcoin and thinking about rolling out an international fiat digital currency (rubber digital currency) to compete with true blockchain currencies. They pursue doing this within three years.

    The downside and the reason it may not be acceptable is this will be the most invasive currency and most rubber currency ever conceived of. It is invasive because each fiat digital coin can be tracked throughout its lifetime and can be earmarked for specific uses, erased by the bank, created by the bank. China has already rolled out its own fiat digital currency and is testing it. Its something to replace the cash in the wallet and to make all actions visible and controllable. Its rubber, because its not backed up by any commodity or effort or energy cost. The bank simply creates it, tracks it, earmarks it and guarantees it as long as you are a good citizen in the bank's opinion.

    The upside: If successfully adopted such a new global currency and banking system could replace many of the functions of most governments, paving the way for global citizenship.

    Here is a long, scary video about this new currency idea. Is it good? Is it bad? Well...it depends. Its definitely going to create a new world order if it succeeds -- which is why it probably won't succeed.
     
  10. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

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    I don't think so. Citizenship and passports are specifically granted by some form of recognised government. They bring with them certain agreements, rights and responsibilities, on the part of both the government and the citizen. I doubt there is (or could be) any truly international government that would want or be accepted as taking the same role all around the world.

    A person generally needs to be a citizen of somewhere - that's just how the system works - but it doesn't have to mean all that much (certainly not much more than legally living in a country). If you really feel so strongly against being a citizen of the country you current are, you are free to seek to change your citizenship, you just need to find somewhere willing to take you and follow whatever processes they set out.

    Or you could stop moaning about irrelevancies and make the best of the situation you're in, just like the rest of us have to. :cool:
     
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  11. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    But you accept taxes as a compulsory community service? And pensions as a general benefit? I don't need the draft either but I think it would be an injustice if some could dodge it without repercussion if there is a draft.
     
  12. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Yes, because paying taxes doesn't involve being deprived of liberty.

    You have the free choice of how you would earn the money to pay them. You're also free to avoid taxes altogether by not making enough money to have to pay tax.

    Sure, though I don't see what that has to do with the draft.

    Slavery is such an affront to human dignity that fewer people enslaved is always better than more people enslaved, even if it means that the slavery happens inequitably.

    Of course, the better - and most equitable - alternative is to not enslave anyone at all.
     
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  13. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Don't know about other countries but I kind of doubt the Democrats or Republicans in the US would be willing to give up that kind of control.
     
  14. Earthtank

    Earthtank Active Member

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    With guys identifying as girls I don't see why you can't identify as an international citizen.
     
  15. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    How about making the UN completely extranational; all members to abjure any national allegiance, take international citizenship and dedicate themselves entirely to their core purpose -- eliminating war.
     
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  16. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Why would anyone have any 'obligation' to the country they chanced to be born in? Is one born on Crips turf ethically obligated to support them in warring against the Bloods, if ordered?

    Benefits? What's the purpose of the social contract? A society is -- should be -- a mutual, self help co-op; a family writ large; one for all and all for one. A democracy is a government by and for the people, not an exploitative oligarcy of the rich and powerful.

    The draft? Noōne has the right to command an immoral act, and the military is an immoral organization whose raison d'être is to kill people and destroy things. Abdicating personal moral responsibility -- just following orders -- was ruled a crime 74 years ago at the Nuremberg trials.

    Dodging the draft; refusing to 'just follow orders' and to kill whomever you're told to, is the only moral choice.
     
  17. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Good point. Personally I'm more concerned with the ethics of ordering another person to abdicate personal moral responsibility and commit immoral acts under orders.
     
  18. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    What the heck is a "recognised government?" Recognised by whom -- other governments?
    It sounds like a racket. How are they different from a criminal gang, other than size? What gives them legitimacy, if not the assent of the people?
     
  19. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Could I guess, but strategically I think the first global citizens must be people that all countries will accept and won't think of as spies. If you can do that for people in the UN then fine, but can you? They are political appointees, so you probably can't.

    I'm thinking later on once the concept and legal framework for global citizens is established in all the countries and as the world works towards peace...then you can use that first tier of global citizens as the gateway...the first step.
     
  20. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    The social contract is, by its nature, one you are forced into not one you signed voluntary so you could argue that you are not legally bound. You are still bound morally to reciprocate when you have received valuable aid you have gladly taken.
    I don't know how well Crips' welfare works but you might have an obligation to reciprocate.
    Depending on the country you live in. Some countries have armies which are, by constitution, only allowed to defend against attacks in an act of self defence.
    Dodging the draft can be the only moral choice when you don't have an other choice. If your country allows for alternative civil service, you have the option to avoid having to shoot at people without bugging out of service to your community.
     
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