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Featured Intelligent Design Isn't So Intelligent

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by Skwim, Jan 2, 2018.

  1. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    What are you talking about. I as posting fact, fact that upsets your delusion

    Then you make a statement by asking a question without actually providing anything to back it up and then a guess by assertion. Have you got nothing? No be honest.

    Chaos Theory and Fractals

    http://algorithmicbotany.org/papers/abop/abop-ch8.pdf
     
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  2. Sapiens

    Sapiens Polymathematician

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    Now you are making it up as you go, that's rather childish.
     
  3. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    If the universe as a whole or on a macro scale is chaotic, how does that undermine God's existence?
     
  4. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    Let me restate, then, not all religious belief is wrong, but all religious people are deluded, therefore, you are here with the untenable stance that over 90% of people are delusional, the inmates running the asylum. Welcome to the asylum!
     
  5. ImmortalFlame

    ImmortalFlame Veteran Member

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    I find it very strange that you respond to the accusation that you're putting words in my mouth by putting more words in my mouth.

    Debate the arguments I actually make - don't imagine things I've never said and then ascribe them to me. That's foolish at best and downright dishonest at worst.
     
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  6. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Fractal math and chaos theory is not 'chaotic nor random.
     
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  7. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Who said it does? It's you, a god believer, making the unsubstantiated claim that the universe is ordered.

    And see you haven't addressed my question. Have you got nothing?
     
    #187 ChristineM, Feb 15, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2018
  8. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    That's his MO when he has no argument. He's tried it on me several times on another forum and he's doing it here now
     
  9. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    What do you mean, "got nothing". Everything is chaos. Who has anything?

    The universe is ordered, in terms of if gravity were slightly different so that the constant 2 over a distance was 1.99999--but you know this. I order you to stop saying the universe is chaotic.
     
  10. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    Tell Christine M, not me!
     
  11. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    You were the one claiming the universe was not chaotic.


    Chaos theory - Wikipedia

    "Chaos theory is a branch of mathematics and it is focused on the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions. ... In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable. This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos."
     
  12. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    You know, the Bible gives explanations for what amounts to human imperfection, like cancer and ectopic pregnancy, and the Earth's damaging systems, such as cyclones and earthquakes.

    But some don't want to understand the reasons for them.
     
  13. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    That's interesting, particularly natural disasters. What is the Bible's explanation for their existence?

    .
     
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  14. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    1. First off, regarding humans: Adam and Eve were perfectly designed. How do we know that? Because God told them, "If you eat....., you will die." So the obverse is true....if they didn't, they would live forever. They would still be alive today. No cancer, no heart disease; a perfect immune system.
    And this genetic perfection would have been passed on to their offspring. But Jehovah God is also the Source of life (Psalms 36:9); keeping their perfection, required listening to and obeying Him. But they wilfully pulled away from Him, and disconnected themselves from their Life source.

    Regarding the Earth's weather: I'm sure you know the stats: this Earth is spinning around 1000 mph at the equator, it's orbiting the Sun at 66,000 mph., and contains a huge atmospheric system. Just be glad we're not on Jupiter!!

    But consider this.....
    Jesus not only healed people from all ailments; he actually exhibited control over the weather (Mark 4:35-41.....
    35That day when evening came, he said to his disciples, “Let us go over to the other side.” 36Leaving the crowd behind, they took him along, just as he was, in the boat. There were also other boats with him. 37A furious squall came up, and the waves broke over the boat, so that it was nearly swamped. 38Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, “Teacher, don’t you care if we drown?”

    39He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, “Quiet! Be still!” Then the wind died down and it was completely calm.

    40He said to his disciples, “Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?”

    41They were terrified and asked each other, “Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!”)

    So the Bible tells us that even the weather can be controlled, and that would've been the permanent situation on Adam and Eve's (and offspring'') behalf. But when they chose to disobey, that changed everything!! (Genesis 3:1-15....vs.15 is the first prophecy, about how Jehovah will rectify matters, through the Seed, Jesus).

    For being perfect, it was easy to listen to authority, to obey. So their disobedient act led to a much deeper issue, actually questioning God's sovereignty: his right as their Father and Creator to set guidelines for them. (That command wasn't hard to follow; just avoid one tree!!) Well, they chose to join the Original Serpent (Revelation 12:9) in rebellion! And all of God's other intelligent creatures -- all the angels -- were, and are, watching this unfold.

    So for 6,000 years, God has allowed mankind to rule themselves, to settle that issue of sovereignty, whether man can successfully rule himself or not, without God intervening.

    And He hasn't stepped in on man's behalf, either....that would be defeating His side of the issue!!

    So the weather is as expected, ie., left on it's own, the kind we see on other planets.

    But that won't always be the case....
    If you read Isaiah 11:9, it says " the Earth will be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah" resulting in peaceful conditions Earthwide. Revelation 21:3-4, 'no more mourning or sorrow, and death will be no more', indicates no more deadly weather!
     
  15. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Not talking about normal weather, which may well contain windy rain storms, but natural disasters where hundreds or thousands of lives are lost, whether they're caused weather, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions, meteor strikes, or earthquakes. What is the Bible's explanation for their existence?

    .
     
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  16. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    No, not explicitly.
    (Most aren't even aware of those issues raised in Genesis 3; it requires some thinking on it....I didn't understand the implications of Genesis 3, until JW's taught me.)

    The Bible only tells us dangerous events that occur now, will cease, and offers an explanation as to how they will be stopped.
     
  17. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    I think you are misunderstanding that chaos theory research involves organized, non-chaotic, axiomatic underpinnings.

    If it helps, I will say, "I agree, the universe is chaotic, since the Fall. What then should we do to prepare to meet the God of chaos and of order?"
     
  18. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    I am misunderstanding nothing, i have studied chaos theory somewhat.

    What did you not understand about "Chaos theory is a branch of mathematics and it is focused on the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions. ... In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable."?



    What fall? The universe began approximately 13.8 billion years ago and has not fallen.
     
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  19. Jean Valjean

    Jean Valjean Member

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    As a zoologist, you would work the animals for your zoo...

    "Let there be..."
    "...a Lion"

    Can someone find my lion?

    Were is it???

    That's intelligent design.

    *sigh*
     
  20. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    Question:

    In the past, before fractal math and so on, wave patterns in the ocean were considered chaotic, unpredictable, but now, we can use fractals to generate very convincing waves using computer-aided design and so on--commonplace today in quality videogames and so on.

    The question is this: When I ask you about God and cosmology, you rely on some kind of "God didn't, but some natural cause we don't yet understand made the universe," so can I use the same approach with you, "The universe, like ocean waves, only appears chaotic, but soon, we'll discover the natural laws and math underlying it's seemingly chaotic appearance"?
     
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