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Intelligent Design and People

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by rojse, Feb 20, 2008.

  1. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    If you want to play chess over and over and over again until you've experienced every possible combination, does it matter to you if the pieces aren't made of gold with diamonds for eyes?
     
  2. Captain Civic

    Captain Civic version 2.0

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    I'm finding this harder to put into words because I don't think the concept is that difficult to grasp, although it might just be a case of disagreement. The idea of creating us with free will in the first place was to negate an emulation of robots. If you're perfect, how are you limited to perfect choices? Aren't you above that?

    This might be derailing a bit, but who says that isn't the definition of a perfect apple? If an apple is never eaten, shouldn't it be able to rot, giving back its nutrients if not absorbed by something else?
     
  3. rojse

    rojse RF Addict

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    Compared to a person that is not designed with what seems to be like an extremely poorly designed internal organ system and the like.
     
  4. rojse

    rojse RF Addict

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    However, wouldn't it be better without such a sloppy design, though?

    And if we are going to say that sloppiness is part of the world, then sloppiness must be a godly characteristic, if he created everything, and did not put in the extra effort to remove this sloppiness.
     
  5. rojse

    rojse RF Addict

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    You have missed my point completely.

    In terms of internal biological function, how come we are designed so sloppily?

    The ability to heal wounds is quite good, but this is nothing compared to the many animals that can regrow entire limbs and the like.
     
  6. rojse

    rojse RF Addict

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    Notice that I said before that, "if we were designed by an intelligent entity".

    Secondlly, most religious people here assume that God designed us for a purpose.
     
  7. rojse

    rojse RF Addict

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    I am not talking about one or two people here, or rare diseases. I am talking about major "design" flaws that are part of everyone's build.

    Some good examples are discussed in Seyorni's post, number #9. It discusses some quite major "design" flaws, which is what I am talking about.
     
  8. rojse

    rojse RF Addict

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    Possible, but not relevant to the discussion at hand.

    Make a separate thread about it, because your post does not address my question.
     
  9. yossarian22

    yossarian22 Resident Schizophrenic

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    No. Perfection by nature requires you to be limited.
    A perfectly straight line cannot bend.
     
  10. rojse

    rojse RF Addict

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    What does that have to do with anything?

    I have asked if God created us, why did he make such a pig's breakfast out of it? I am not talking about us having super vision, being able to fly, or something equally ridiculous like that. I am asking, in the design that God made for us, why are there so many biological problems that cause unnecessary pain, which could have been fixed quite easily by an intelligent desinger.
     
  11. Captain Civic

    Captain Civic version 2.0

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    Then you would agree that they didn't have free will?
     
  12. yossarian22

    yossarian22 Resident Schizophrenic

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    They did, but were limited by their own perfection. Free will does not mean you [can] do whatever is possible; free will means you [can] do what you choose. One must first think of an action before acting upon it. Because they were perfect, they could not think to act upon an imperfect choice.
     
  13. Sola'lor

    Sola'lor LDSUJC

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    I think the 'design flaws' are proff that we didn't evolve. If we had evolved, we would have been better suited for life on this world. As far as 'design flaws' by God. God created man with perfect bodies in his own image. Our imperfect and mortal condition is because of the fall of Adam and Eve. Also the inbreeding of Adams children would have resulted in weaker genes. That's my opinion anyway.
     
  14. rojse

    rojse RF Addict

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    Design flaws are excellent proof that we evolved. As we evolved, different body parts would neccessarily have had different functions, in that we had a different style of life and different needs. As we changed, through natural selection, it would be easily explained through evolutionary mechanics that what we had needed previously would be disregarded when we came up with a different arrangement, and what we had used before would be used in a different manner.

    A simple example - we get goosebumps when we are frightened or are cold. This has no use for us now, but in the past, this would have raised the hair on us, making us appear larger, and more intimidating, when we are frightened. It would raise hair on us, and help us keep warm, when we are cold. Because we are not very hairy creatures now, goosebumps do not help us frighten animals, or keep us warm.

    I can use the theory of evolution to explain goosebumps, but I cannot use Intelligent Design to explain why we have goosebumps.

    Second point - evolution does not say that we have to be perfectly suited for this world. It says that we have to suit it enough merely so that we can breed, and pass on our genes to the next generation.

    Evolution is a constant process, and because the world changes constantly, any standard of perfection cannot be attained. Sometimes there are droughts, or floods, or a famine. A new predator might arrive on the scene. Each circumstance will better suit some individuals over others.
     
  15. Quoth The Raven

    Quoth The Raven Half Arsed Muse

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    Nope, you can blame your ancestors and their bad genetics for that. Damn inconsiderate people with their apendixes, breeding indiscriminately and passing on those bad genes. :slap:
     
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  16. Magic Man

    Magic Man Reaper of Conversation

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    I guess that's the problem. To me, the definition of being perfect is the inability to make a mistake. Perfection is different from omnipotence. Just because you're perfect doesn't necessarily mean you can do everything. By my definiton, it actually means that you cannot do everything, since you can't make a mistake.

    So, no, if you're perfect, you're not above being limited to perfect choices. By most people's standards, if I kill someone, I'm imperfect. Therefore to be perfect, I'd have to not choose to kill someone, thereby avoiding an imperfect choice.
     
  17. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    God didn't make such a pig's breakfast out of it but you can't see that because you are too busy acting like a spoiled little brat who throws a tantrum because he has to eat his peas.

    Whatever biological problems you don't like, fix them yourself.
     
  18. Magic Man

    Magic Man Reaper of Conversation

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    It's that easy? Sweet, pretty soon I'll be perfect! :cool:
     
  19. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    Uh, who said it was easy?
     
  20. Magic Man

    Magic Man Reaper of Conversation

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    Well, if I can do it myself, it's a lot easier than most people think. As far as I know, there is no one who thinks that we can just change our own biology because it's too difficult a task for humans. Therefore, if I could do it myself, it would be comparatively easy.
     
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