Inhabited Planets

[Unification]

My current view on the likelihood of life in the universe is based on looking at what we know about the universe. If the laws of physics are consistent, which they are as far as we can tell, then the basics of elements and their interactions (chemistry) are consistent as well. Being that there are a massive number of repeating, and predictable, processes based on these fundamental processes of physics and chemistry, if life arose here from these processes, it doesn't seem unlikely that these same processes would result in life forming elsewhere, especially considering the unfathomable number of instances of likely similar environments throughout the universe. Essentially, as a result of the consistency of the fundamental rules and materials of the universe, we see the same structures and processes repeated countless times. This being the case, and if life isn't something "different" from the rest of the universe (as it doesn't appear to be) it could be that life is simply an inevitable result of the laws of our universe - a systematic progression from physics to chemistry to biology.

Personally, I wouldn't say that I "believe" that life must exist elsewhere, but based on this perspective, the size and age of the universe, and that nothing in the universe seems remotely unique, I certainly wouldn't be surprised if life is common.

Now, as far as intelligent life, as we perceive it, it's more difficult to say, as the specific variables involved in an evolutionary process which would result in such a configuration are necessarily far less likely, as life seems able to propagate just fine without such a complex development.

In your opinion, what "could" happen if the laws of physics were not constant throughout the universe? There are and have been observed studies that show/may show that the laws of physics are not fundamental and constant in all areas of the universe.

 

[Unification]

Unless I am mistaken, humans wrote the various scrolls that would eventually become the Bible. Those same people did not have telescopes or microscopes, and thought that epilepsy was a demonic possession.

I think I'll stick to my math instead of whatever fuzzy stuff you're going on about.

Since this thread is about imagination, let's combine the two.

What if the bible was not a religious book at all, and was a book of great coded wisdom and knowledge written by the us/aliens from off planet that are thousands of years ahead and more advanced than us now living on another planet?

 

[Katzpur]

I'm assuming you didn't know about JFS's remark about Kolob.

In all honesty, I can't recall every statement ever made by every person who ever held any position of authority in the LDS Church. I may or may not have heard the remark before; I really don't recall. It would not have made the slightest bit of difference in how I responded to your question, though, because LDS scripture (which, unlike JFS's comment, is officially binding doctrine) says the following:

"And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it; And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me..."

But you've just implied his statement is false.

I have stated that it is his opinion and is not in accordance with official doctrine -- official doctrine being what is true.[/quote]

Your church doesn't believe JFS's statement, Kolob is "the great governing star of our universe" and "the residence of God," is true.

My Church believes the statement as stated in the scriptures.

So the assertions of the first general authority of his time, who had ecclesiastical authority over the church, takes a back seat to the opinions of other leaders, far lesser than himself, who disagree.

That is absolutely correct. I have already quoted a statement stating how official doctrine is determined, and you apparently don't believe it. It doesn't matter who makes a statement; if it cannot be supported by official doctrinal sources, it is simply one man's opinion. There has never been an LDS prophet who has claimed to be infallible.

Okay. JFS lied when he claimed Kolob is "the great governing star of our universe" and "the residence of God.

Okay, I think I'm starting to see where you're coming from. You don't know the difference between a lie and an opinion that is not supported by scripture. I should have known.

In any case, even if he got it wrong about where god resides there's still the matter of where Kolob is, this universe or some other. You said " Did I say it was somewhere within our universe? I don't believe I did. As a matter of fact, if God created our universe, and existed prior to its creation, it would be more logical to assume that He resides elsewhere."

I don't know where Kolob is. Neither do you. Neither does anyone. And what the hell difference does it make? The only thing I said about the location of Kolob is that it is not necessarily within our universe. If there is a God, as I believe there is, He is perfectly capable of governing our universe without actually residing in it. And as I said before (and as you ignored before), if God created our universe, He had to exist independently of it and prior to it. He could not very well have created the universe He was supposedly existing in when He created it.

Strongly Implying that Kolob is not in this universe. However, we have the following Mormon writings

Jah-oh-eh The earth under the governing power of oliblish, Enish go on dosh, and Kai e van rash, which are grand Key or in other words, the governing power, which governs the fifteen fixed stars (twelve [unclear words]) that belong governs the earth, sun & moon, (which have their power in one) with the other twelve moving planets of this system. Oliblish - Enish go on dosh, and Kaii ven rash, are the three grand central powers that govern all the other creations, which have been sought out by the most aged of all the fathers, since the beginning of the creation, by means of the Urim and Thummim: The names of the other twelve of the fixed stars are: Kolob, Limdi, Zip, Vusel, Venisti, Waine, Wayoh=ox=oan, oansli, Shible, Shineflis, flis, os. The Egyptian names of the fifteen moving planest are: Oanisis, Flosisis, floese: Abbesels, Eleash, Subble, Slundlo, Carroam, Crashmakraw, obblesisim, Izinsbah, missel
Source: page 24 of Joseph Smith's Egyptian Alphabet & Grammar,
(My emphasis)​

Seriously? You really aren't paying attention, are you, Skwim? This is taken from "Joseph Smith's Egyptian Alphabet & Grammar," for crying out loud! What did I just get through posting about non-canonical writings? They do not constitute official doctrine.​

And

1 And I, Abraham, had the Urim and Thummim, which the Lord my God had given unto me, in Ur of the Chaldees;

2 And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it;

3 And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.
Source: Pearl of Great Price / Abraham 3: 1-3​

Yes. This is doctrinal. Now tell me where this gives us the location of Kolob -- give or take a few million light years. Tell me where it says that God lives on Kolob. It doesn't! All it says is that the name of the greatest star, which is nearest to the throne of God is "Kolob." That's all it says. Stop pretending that it says something more specific than it does.

​

Okay, I guess it was difficult to extrapolate my answer from what I said: "I believe you were unaware that Joseph Fielding Smith said. . . . ."

If what he said is doctrine then it's apparent you don't know your doctrine---the answer then would be (a). And being unaware would preclude lying about it---so (b) would be an inappropriate choice. If what he said isn't doctrine then your question is moot.

You're seriously not as dense as you're pretending to be, are you Skwim? Joseph Fielding Smith's remark IS NOT DOCTRINE! IT'S ONE MAN'S INTERPRETATION OF DOCTRINE! And no LDS leader today would say otherwise. You just fricken' don't get it, do you? Why in the world would you think that you have a better grasp of what constitutes LDS doctrine than I -- as lifelong member of the Church -- do? Doesn't that strike you as just a little bit presumptuous?

Oh, and one more thing... My question isn't moot regardless of how you want to try to avoid answering it. I frequently respond to questions about LDS doctrine. If I am an honest and reliable source of information, people ought to pay attention to what I say and learn from it. If I'm either ignorant or dishonest, people should basically pay no attention to me. I'm gathering you're one of the ones who choose to pay no attention to me. That's your problem. Everything I post is both accurate and honest.

 

[cambridge79]

Since this thread is about imagination, let's combine the two.

What if the bible was not a religious book at all, and was a book of great coded wisdom and knowledge written by the us/aliens from off planet that are thousands of years ahead and more advanced than us now living on another planet?

That would be even more disappointing, they come from another planet and with all the knowledge they could share with us, they came up with a book telling us how to properly sacrifice a lamb?

 

[Skwim]

I have stated that it is his opinion and is not in accordance with official doctrine -- official doctrine being what is true.

My Church believes the statement as stated in the scriptures.

Your tap dancing doesn't impress. What are you, a politician? In any case I'll concede that god didn't establish his office on Kolob, so let's go on to your implication that Kolob isn't within our universe.

"Did I say it was somewhere within our universe? I don't believe I did. As a matter of fact, if God created our universe, and existed prior to its creation, it would be more logical to assume that He resides elsewhere".​

Yet now you want to back off. Not that I blame you.

I don't know where Kolob is. Neither do you. Neither does anyone. And what the hell difference does it make?* The only thing I said about the location of Kolob is that it is not necessarily within our universe.

Nah, we both know you said no such thing. You tried to make a case that neither one is in our universe. Moreover, both of us also know that because heaven is close to Kolob the two must reside in the same universe. The problem then is to try to establish where Kolob is. So, what do we have? We have . . . . . . .with your kind consent.

1 And I, Abraham, had the Urim and Thummim, which the Lord my God had given unto me, in Ur of the Chaldees;

2 And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it;

3 And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.
Source: Pearl of Great Price / Abraham 3: 1-3​

So, what's going on here? We have an earthling, Abraham, a biblical prophet and patriarch who is relating how he had a priestly device for obtaining oracles, which he received from god in the Sumerian city-state of UR.
Then Abraham says he saw stars that were great, one of which was "nearest unto the throne of God." Cool! but what is this great star Abraham saw in the sky (the sky of our universe, by the way)?
Well, we don't have to wait long because god tells Abraham what it is. "These are the governing ones; [other great stars] and the name of the great one is Kolob,"
Ta Da! There we have it. The great star Abraham saw in our sky is Kolob.
So, although neither you nor any other Mormon can point it out in the sky, it's up there somewhere, and visible to the naked eye no less. AND, heaven being near it, can't be that far off. If it was then it would be closer to some other star.

So, so much for the possibility that Kolob is in some other universe. I bet it's nice to have that settled.

And, although you said,

"If there is a God, as I believe there is, He is perfectly capable of governing our universe without actually residing in it. "​

the thing is, he's there nonetheless. His throne is near Kolob, which is within sight from Earth, which means; if one knew in which direction to look for Kolob it may be possible to spot heaven as well.

And all this from three verses in, what, infallible?, Mormon doctrine.

Oh, and one more thing... My question isn't moot regardless of how you want to try to avoid answering it. I frequently respond to questions about LDS doctrine. If I am an honest and reliable source of information, people ought to pay attention to what I say and learn from it. If I'm either ignorant or dishonest, people should basically pay no attention to me. I'm gathering you're one of the ones who choose to pay no attention to me. That's your problem. Everything I post is both accurate and honest.

To be kind, I've never seen such arrogant arrogance before.........................And yes, it is moot, and you know it...... At least I think you're bright enough to.


*Love your dismissiveness in the face of embarrassment.

 

[Neo Deist]

When somebody starts making truth claims about it they've crossed a line. Like Deist Mentor's claim about what is a "conservative" number concerning odds.
Tom

So .000001% is not a conservative number? Heck I even expanded that to .00000000001% and still came up with 1 billion planets. Sorry if the vastness of the universe is beyond your comprehension.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

What if the bible was not a religious book at all, and was a book of great coded wisdom and knowledge written by the us/aliens from off planet that are thousands of years ahead and more advanced than us now living on another planet?

The Old Testament is primitive, not advanced.

 

[columbus]

So .000001% is not a conservative number? Heck I even expanded that to .00000000001% and still came up with 1 billion planets. Sorry if the vastness of the universe is beyond your comprehension.

Any of these numbers concerning odds evidence based?
Or is it more of a faith thing? You want to believe so you do.
Tom

 

[Neo Deist]

Since this thread is about imagination, let's combine the two.

What if the bible was not a religious book at all, and was a book of great coded wisdom and knowledge written by the us/aliens from off planet that are thousands of years ahead and more advanced than us now living on another planet?

Highly doubtful as the following are found within that book:

1. Kill everyone except the young, untouched girls; take them for yourselves as sex slaves.
2. We all come from two people in a make believe garden that had a talking snake.
3. No, wait...we all come from some dude and his small family on a boat that survived a global flood that never happened.
4. We're going to build a tower to reach the heavens! What, I can't understand you...
5. Strike up the band and maybe those stone walls that have stood for centuries will fall.
6. My son falls down, his body shakes and his eyes turn white. He's possessed! [with epilepsy]
7. Jesus...you died but I do not recognize you now. [different dude...duh!]
8. The sun stood still in the sky so they had more time to wage war...[earth centric view]
9. We're going to walk around this desert for 40 years because no one thought to bring a map...or to keep heading east.
10. Lazarus...rise up from the grave. You have a theatrical career with AMC.

 

[Aset's Flames]

We know that there are billions of stars in our galaxy, the Milky Way. Those stars can each have several planets in orbit around them.

We know that there are billions of galaxies in the visible universe.

Using those two facts, let's estimate that there are at least 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets in the universe. Of those let's say only .000001% can contain life. That leaves a (conservative) estimate of 1,000,000,000,000 (one trillion) potential alien civilizations.

Yet our little mud ball of a planet is the center for religion, God's divine revelation, judgment, His son the Messiah, and the path to paradise in the afterlife? It is because of statistics like the above demonstrated that I reject revealed, earth bound, man made religions and embrace deism.

I do not see how this would reject Classical Theism or prove Deism.

 

[cambridge79]

The Old Testament is primitive, not advanced.

the old testament is exactly what you would expect people from 3500/4000 years ago to write down for themselves: a myth of creation, like all ancient cultures had, a set of laws, like all ancient cultures needed, a collection of myths to give themselves entitlement, like all ancient cultures had ( we are the people of god, and god is on our side so we're special: who would ever possibly come up with a story telling "the true god is the one of the egiptians, unfortunately he hate us, we have to deal with it and learn to live with our misery )
But is absolutely nothing you would expect from an alien civilization able to travel trought space ( and possibly time ) from another part of the galaxy and that cared to share their knowledge or wisdom with us ( unless they wanted to trick us into believing they are gods, in order to enslave us to their will ). thousands of pages to tell you how to sacrifice lambs, not a single mention on how to produce iron or steel.
so, one should ask, what is the more likely option between the two?

 

[Unification]

Highly doubtful as the following are found within that book:

1. Kill everyone except the young, untouched girls; take them for yourselves as sex slaves.
2. We all come from two people in a make believe garden that had a talking snake.
3. No, wait...we all come from some dude and his small family on a boat that survived a global flood that never happened.
4. We're going to build a tower to reach the heavens! What, I can't understand you...
5. Strike up the band and maybe those stone walls that have stood for centuries will fall.
6. My son falls down, his body shakes and his eyes turn white. He's possessed! [with epilepsy]
7. Jesus...you died but I do not recognize you now. [different dude...duh!]
8. The sun stood still in the sky so they had more time to wage war...[earth centric view]
9. We're going to walk around this desert for 40 years because no one thought to bring a map...or to keep heading east.
10. Lazarus...rise up from the grave. You have a theatrical career with AMC.

1. Killing abstract stuff the mind is enslaved to, unsure where "sex" came from although your male and female polarities in mind are having sex(ionically bonding) to something.
2. The garden is your dendritic brain and mind. Not literal people. All knowledge came from the brain and mind. All of mankinds brain and mind children. Snakes don't talk, minds think.
3. The boat is the brain/mind. Really a story about meditation. The flooding is the destruction of certain thoughts, emotions, and knowledge by energy. Rising above them.
4. The tower built is within... Most build their towers with giant ego syndrome and as respectors of certain words, language, and terminology only.
5. Your stone walls are seeing all of the texts literally only, strike up the band and perhaps those walls will come down and you'll be able to see beyond the literal. Someone's stonewalls are their mental strongholds.
6. A "son" is a thought. A thought that is driving someone mentally crazy and with rage and bringing them down. Can't see beyond that.
7. Jesus isn't a literal dude.
8. The sun and the moon standing still is a mind standing still(meditation) in order to wage an inner war and destroy certain abstract thoughts, emotions, and knowledge.
9. Almost every human that's ever existed has wandered around lost in their mundane lives for 40 years minimum because they have no purpose(map-direction) due to not going towards the Eastern hemisphere of the brain.
10. Internal resurrection of someone not literally dead. More of a resurrection from apathy and rumination. The grave is the gut/belly.

A theatrical career with AMC... that was hilarious! Lol!

 

[Katzpur]

Your tap dancing doesn't impress. What are you, a politician? In any case I'll concede that god didn't establish his office on Kolob, so let's go on to your implication that Kolob isn't within our universe.

"Did I say it was somewhere within our universe? I don't believe I did. As a matter of fact, if God created our universe, and existed prior to its creation, it would be more logical to assume that He resides elsewhere".​

Yet now you want to back off. Not that I blame you.

​

Nah, we both know you said no such thing. You tried to make a case that neither one is in our universe. Moreover, both of us also know that because heaven is close to Kolob the two must reside in the same universe. The problem then is to try to establish where Kolob is. So, what do we have? We have . . . . . . .with your kind consent.

1 And I, Abraham, had the Urim and Thummim, which the Lord my God had given unto me, in Ur of the Chaldees;

2 And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it;

3 And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.
Source: Pearl of Great Price / Abraham 3: 1-3​

So, what's going on here? We have an earthling, Abraham, a biblical prophet and patriarch who is relating how he had a priestly device for obtaining oracles, which he received from god in the Sumerian city-state of UR.
Then Abraham says he saw stars that were great, one of which was "nearest unto the throne of God." Cool! but what is this great star Abraham saw in the sky (the sky of our universe, by the way)?
Well, we don't have to wait long because god tells Abraham what it is. "These are the governing ones; [other great stars] and the name of the great one is Kolob,"
Ta Da! There we have it. The great star Abraham saw in our sky is Kolob.
So, although neither you nor any other Mormon can point it out in the sky, it's up there somewhere, and visible to the naked eye no less. AND, heaven being near it, can't be that far off. If it was then it would be closer to some other star.

So, so much for the possibility that Kolob is in some other universe. I bet it's nice to have that settled.

And, although you said,

"If there is a God, as I believe there is, He is perfectly capable of governing our universe without actually residing in it. "​

the thing is, he's there nonetheless. His throne is near Kolob, which is within sight from Earth, which means; if one knew in which direction to look for Kolob it may be possible to spot heaven as well.

And all this from three verses in, what, infallible?, Mormon doctrine.

To be kind, I've never seen such arrogant arrogance before.........................And yes, it is moot, and you know it...... At least I think you're bright enough to.


*Love your dismissiveness in the face of embarrassment.

Skwim, you've given me no reason to want to continue this dialogue. You are obviously entertained by what you perceive to be your extraordinary debate skills. I have explained LDS doctrine on Kolob well enough that anybody who has any real intention of understanding it should have no problem. That is clearly not what you're here for. I have also explained what does and what does not constitute official LDS doctrine. Rather than learn from what I've said, you simply ignore it. When I ask you for a simple answer to a question, you say it's moot.

When people start calling me arrogant for insisting that I am both knowledgeable on my own religion and am honest in presenting it, I know it's time to call it quits. You will undoubtedly have another insult to add at this point, but I won't see it. In over ten years on RF, I have put only three or four people on ignore. In order to make that list, a person has to demonstrate time and time again that they are here more to troll than for anything else. Congrats on making the list. It's very short, but you have definitely earned a spot on it, so pat yourself on the back and toot your own horn a little.

 

[Neo Deist]

I do not see how this would reject Classical Theism or prove Deism.

Christianity is mostly Earth centered. Astronomy (science) has shown that the Earth is not the center of anything within the universe. Deism embraces scientific explanation. While science certainly does not prove deism to be true, it does not hurt it.

 

[Skwim]

Skwim, you've given me no reason to want to continue this dialogue.

Actually, I believe it's you who has given yourself good reason not to continue. Embarrassment is one of the reasons exit doors were invented.

You are obviously entertained by what you perceive to be your extraordinary debate skills.

"Extraordinary debate skills"??? I feel flattered that you perceive my reasoned arguments to be any kind of debating skill, much less those approaching extraordinary. However, what does entertain me is good tap dancing. For that you have my sincere Thanks.

I have explained LDS doctrine on Kolob well enough that anybody who has any real intention of understanding it should have no problem.

Yet I get no thanks for straightening you out about your misconception of Kolob's location. But I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

I have also explained what does and what does not constitute official LDS doctrine. Rather than learn from what I've said, you simply ignore it.

Actually I didn't, which is why I concede that god didn't inhabit Kolob, and why I only used the Pearl of Great Price to show you your error.

When I ask you for a simple answer to a question, you say it's moot.

If you recall, it was a conditional kind of moot. And the condition was that it simply didn't apply. There's little more I can say if you don't recognize your question for what it is.

When people start calling me arrogant for insisting that I am both knowledgeable on my own religion and am honest in presenting it, I know it's time to call it quits.

Really? I said "I've never seen such arrogant arrogance before" because you said "Everything I post is both accurate and honest." I have no trouble believing that you are honest in what you say, even if it's wrong. It's the wrong part that makes your comment arrogant, because not everything you post is accurate even if you think it is. "Everything I post is accurate" are the words of a cocky 7th grader.

You will undoubtedly have another insult to add at this point, but I won't see it. In over ten years on RF, I have put only three or four people on ignore. In order to make that list, a person has to demonstrate time and time again that they are here more to troll than for anything else. Congrats on making the list. It's very short, but you have definitely earned a spot on it, so pat yourself on the back and toot your own horn a little.

As if you're not going to take a peek at this.

 

[Akivah]

How do you reckon, given that we've only taken samples from 3 planets and a couple of moons? At the very least, it's 1 in 8 (at the moment) That's the most factually accurate statement that we can make given our range of knowledge.

We are completely ignorant on almost all of the 1,059 Extra Solar planets that have been discovered to date.

I agree with you. We know nothing about all those other planets. We have a sample of 1. Therefore the supposition that there is life elsewhere is equally as valid as the supposition that there is life no where else.

 

[Akivah]

Does anyone else find it unsettling that it's highly unlikely that we exist?

I know, yeah. What are the odds?!!

 

[Aset's Flames]

I know, yeah. What are the odds?!!

Because nothing improbable has ever occurred before?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I know, yeah. What are the odds?!!

Apparently, zero.

 

[Straw Dog]

It's only somewhat unlikely that we exist according to particular analyses of probabilities. Over time, as awareness of the variables change, it may become a more common place expectation for semi-intelligent species to be somewhat prevalent in the universe. Nothing special.