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information on panentheism

Rolling_Stone

Well-Known Member
It's easier to decide whether to accept or reject something once you are clear on what it is.
I don't think it can be more clear: the effect, the individual, is not greater than or equal to the cause.

Infinity transcends the chaos that divides us, it transcends the multiple, the "we," but we do not. The diverse parts are not the whole even if they include it.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I don't think it can be more clear: Infinity implies unity but does not exclude diversity. "Between me and thee there is chaos, else there would be no me and thee (no diversity)." Infinity transcends the chaos that divides us, it transcends the multiple, the "we," but we do not. The diverse parts are not the whole even if they include it.

OK, but wouldn't that be a broader definition of existence? You're saying that we are part of existence, but isn't existence a part of us too?
 

Rolling_Stone

Well-Known Member
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Let's return to common sense and move away from the pitfalls of solipsism. Can we, having consciousness, mind, and ideal-values, possess more and therefore [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]be[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] more than All-That-Is? The difference may be only in degree, but it's still a difference.[/FONT]
 

Troublemane

Well-Known Member
Queston: Are you familiar with The Urantia Book?

Somewhat, I looked at it 20 years ago and it was way too much to digest back then (was more into chasin girls at that time ;)) I recall it having a great deal of info about choirs of angels and the bureacracy of Heaven, and how th Cosmos is much much older than anybody realizes, and such. But beyond that its a bit fuzzy. :D

OK, but wouldn't that be a broader definition of existence? You're saying that we are part of existence, but isn't existence a part of us too?

I agree partly with mball, and disagree strongly with Immanual Kant, on this--Existence is a predicate, i.e. a property of a thing. Kant said its not, but I think existence is relative to the effect something has on something else, so the relative existence of something is measured in terms of how it relates to other things, and vice-versa. Not sure if this is the "chaos" to which RS refers, but for me it ties into Quantum Theory and the many-worlds interpretation/ or how in General Relativity there is no preferred inertial reference frame for any motion in the Universe, as an example. :D
 

Rolling_Stone

Well-Known Member
Somewhat, I looked at it 20 years ago and it was way too much to digest back then (was more into chasin girls at that time ;)) I recall it having a great deal of info about choirs of angels and the bureacracy of Heaven, and how th Cosmos is much much older than anybody realizes, and such. But beyond that its a bit fuzzy. :D
The reason I asked is that many of your ideas seem to be derived from it.

for me it ties into Quantum Theory
Bingo. Between observations (measurements) we cannot say an electron even exists, let alone whether it's a particle or wave. It is this inability to observe the in-between that makes "we" possible (edit: and the Infinite transcends). The point I was trying to make is that a strictly monistic view loses sight of experience and common sense; on the other hand, a strictly dualistic view (the universe composed of isolated parts) denies the logical necessity of the unity of infinity. Hence, my view is basically panentheistic, but with a strong emphasis on the theistic for reasons that are too involved to go into here.

But if you really want me to get into it, just say the word. But it might be long-winded.

Edit: If you were still into chasing girls 20 years ago, yer still a kid. ;)
 

Troublemane

Well-Known Member
Yeah, RS if you've got time and inclination to talk about your ideas, I'd like to hear. As Im sure other less vocal people would as well. :D
 

Rolling_Stone

Well-Known Member
Here goes.

The very structure of the human mind suggests a hidden awareness of God. The fact something exists makes it self-evident that something exists necessarily; something exists that cannot not exist. Human beings in every age and every culture believed there to be a controlling force or cause and that everything that has a beginning has a cause. This along with the order, complexity and wholeness of the cosmos naturally suggests to humans there is intelligence and will behind it all, an uncaused Cause. But none of this says anything about the nature of the force or cause behind it all. Calling it all the product of chance is merely a soft pillow for ignorance. It doesn't tell us whether the uncaused Cause is intelligent, personal or worthy of worship. It only says that we should take seriously the fact that all of us have this innate understanding.

Human concepts of causation have evolved over countless generations: from fetishes and charms, to idols and disembodied spirits, to personal and impersonal forces, to infinity itself. And we wonder: can we, having consciousness, mind, and ideal-values, possess more and therefore be more than All-That-Is? Or is it more reasonable to say that All-That-Is has consciousness, mind and ideal-values that transcend our own, perhaps even absolute consciousness, mind and ideal-values? If by reason we can't be certain, maybe it should ask which perspective has the greatest human appeal and practical value.

Infinity implies immutability but does not imply immobility; it implies unity, but does not exclude diversity. I'm a realist. If reality is differentiated in time, it is self-differentiated in eternity. If I find diversity in time, and I will find it in infinity and eternity precisely because infinity implies immutability. For Creatorship is the aggregate of the Infinite's acting, immutable and eternal nature, not an attribute. If a differentiated reality exists at all, it has always been so. Therefore, I acknowledge the unity of Infinity and the Infinite within without forfeiting my common sense, without denying my finiteness and separation: there is indeed a separate existence in fact and in manifestation, but not essence, not in truth.

To the human mind there simply must be a beginning, and though there never was a beginning to reality, there are certain internal source-relationships which reality must manifest in order for existence (as we know it) to exist. The pre-reality situation may be thought of as something like this: At some hypothetical, infinitely distant, pre-eternity moment, the I AM was undifferentiated—it was both thing and no thing, both cause and effect, both volition and response. At this hypothetical eternity-moment, there was no differentiation throughout all infinity: infinity was filled by the Infinite and the Infinite encompassed infinity. This is the hypothetical static moment of eternity where actuals are still contained within their potentials, and potentials have not yet appeared within the infinity of the I AM. But in this conjectured situation, we must assume an impetus to action, we must assume the existence of the possibility of self-will.

Will manifests as action. In the infinite nature of the monistic I AM, there could not possibly exist a duality of reality, such as physical and spiritual; but the instant we look aside from the infinite and absolute levels of reality we observe diversity, the existence of two realities, and recognize that they are fully responsive to a personal presence, to will. It can be said, then, that God does not have will, but is will. And the moment we depart from the concept of the original monistic Creator-personality, the First Source and Center, we must postulate MIND as the inevitable technique of unifying the ever-widening divergence of these dual universe manifestations within the original I AM.

In that this refers to eternal relationships within the One, we can reasonably surmise at least four manifestations of one reality, three of which are self-determined: The infinite and original I AM as it remains in the background of self-manifestation; I AM divested of all that which is non-personal and non-spiritual--the Word who sanctions the creative adventure; and Mind, who, in the presence of the divested, controls and coordinates the process of self-manifestation.

In God we live, move and have our being; in us, God escapes the experiential limitations of infinity. The notion of "freedom" can arise only in the context of limitations and boundaries; the will of God is without either. Neuroscience studies the thing that conditions the unconditioned Mind while assuming the brain the bottom line. The human mind itself is indeed seated in the physical, but transcends it. Experiments indicate that just thinking about something can reconfigure the brain. Brain scans show that when people are divided into three groups and put into a room with a piano over a period of several days, the brains of the group told to think about practicing hard on the piano changed almost as much as the group that actually practiced, while the group that was instructed to do nothing showed no change at all. (We can argue, then, that if the brain of a homosexual is different than that of a heterosexual, it is the thinking that alters it.) But only the preeminence of will makes such experiments possible.

The brain doesn't decide anything. The human brain generates a bio-electric field which rests gently upon the electrochemical mechanism below and delicately touches energy systems above. We are never completely conscious of either; therefore, all our decisions take place between these two pulls. The power to choose resides therewith. True freedom comes from above, not from below. Man is free to the extent the mind is directed by will to receive the Unconditioned into the conscious mind. Mind choosing to identify with the material becomes increasingly material-bound; mind choosing to identify with “spirit” becomes increasingly spiritual and free. The question, then, is what constitutes spirit.

Mind chooses whether to react to the brain's conditioning or to act from above—or at least aim to act from above. Choices explained in terms of psychology, social-conditioning and whatnot goes to the material. They are reactive and have nothing at all to do will except to describe how the brain conditions it. And let's face it. We're heavily conditioned creatures. All life is more than the sum of its component parts, but only humans have the capacity to be aware of this fact and have the potential to consciously use that knowledge. Sadly, few people choose to exercise that prerogative. People will rationalize anything to avoid being held accountable by their own mind, which is why I distrust rationalism. Is this a reaction to, say, Hitler rationalizing the murder of millions? Yes. Do I rationalize belief in God? Yes. Is that belief largely the result of culture, inheritance and experience? Yes. Why do I let all these things dictate my life? Because my bonds are many and intricate. The most difficult of all is egoism, the delusion that I have an individual existence sufficient in itself and separate from the Unconditioned, who is beyond time, space and causality, the One who is Causation itself.

The mission of theology is merely to facilitate the self-consciousness of personal spiritual experience. It constitutes the religious effort to define, clarify, expound, and justify the experiential claims of religion, which, in the last analysis, can be validated only by it being lived. Theology also produces moral demands and other effects in one's life and are often controversial, but there is no higher purposes than the task of knowing God. (continued)



 

Rolling_Stone

Well-Known Member
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif](continued)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]aspire[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] to infinite force, infinite knowledge, infinite bliss, but can I attain it? Yes, in theory, but the nature of infinity is that it has no end. I say not, therefore, that I can attain it, but am forever [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]becoming[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] it. I attain God by striving to become [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]like[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] God, but attainment is to enter into relations with him. There are relations within the scope of my human development called prayer, worship, adoration, sacrifice, thought, faith, science, philosophy. There are other relations beyond my developed capacity but within the range of my potential. My bonds, however, are many and intricate. The most difficult of all is egoism, the delusion that I have an individual existence sufficient in itself and separate from the Unconditioned, who is beyond time, space and causality. I[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] can hardly hope to be perfect in the infinite sense, but it is entirely possible to attain the supernal and divine goal which the infinite God has set for me, and when I do achieve this destiny, I will, in all that pertains to self-realization and mind attainment, be just as [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]replete[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] in my sphere of divine perfection as God himself is in his sphere of infinity and eternity. Such perfection may not be universal in the material sense, unlimited in intellectual grasp, or final in spiritual experience, but it is final and complete in all finite aspects of divinity of will, perfection of personality motivation, and God-consciousness.[/FONT]
 
That is the thing pantheism has problems attached to it because it takes away interpersonal forces which are spiritually influential but can influence men and promote personal change. Energy cannot do this.
 
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