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Featured Information in the Genome

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by Eyes to See, Mar 28, 2022.

  1. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    I was going to ask the same thing - only to a mind that perhaps already understands the relationships between the cards and suits does the particular, cited order of the cards divulge a greater amount of information using less information. In other words - parts of the information are ALREADY IN PLACE in the mind you can divulge this "low information" version of ordering to. Parts like the consecutive ordering of our human numbering system, or what order the face cards are from a perception-based "least" to "greatest".

    Whereas, stating something like "From most graphical elements separated by white-space to least with ties broken in the order of diamonds, hearts, clubs and spades in that order" could still get you good results with low information overhead. It's all rather arbitrary without leaning on further systems comprising or outsourcing the processing of fairly vast sets of information (eyes that can discern colors and shapes, for example).
     
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  2. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Veteran Member

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    The magic wand of time solution, lol!
     
  3. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Well that was expected, creationists always mock the time aspect because they have no argument against it. Thanks for your support.
     
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  4. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    The simple answer is that information can be created without the creator explicitly knowing it. That is the evolution of life as such has no conscious awareness that it is producing any sort of order at all. The evolutionary process does not seek a goal or interpret the outcomes of its development in a way independent of the development itself.

    The information that is created is created in a very long and circumspect manner such that plenty of entropy is produced in order to more than make up for the order produced by the presnse of that DNA.
     
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  5. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Veteran Member

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    If something is impossible adding time doesn't change that.
     
  6. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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  7. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    You are using different types of entropy (natural vs artificial) and you are using deck of card to illustrate nature, are just as baseless and irrelevant as using the Watchmaker analogy, and other similar “designed needing designer” analogies, eg computer design analogy, car design analogy, etc.

    These faulty analogies have nothing to do with biology, genetics or with evolutionary biology.

    Analogy isn’t a scientific explanation, because they are often misleading, because you are comparing one thing that are often completely unrelated to another thing.

    It would be like comparing lemon with yellow Ferrari supercar in an analogy, where except for describing their colors, they are nothing alike, physically.

    Analogies often used very superficial comparisons.

    Analogies are more suited for poetry, religious scriptures, psychology, and philosophies, they not useful in natural sciences.
     
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  8. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    No, creationists like to make up times, to suit whatever time they wanted them to be.

    Like the idiocy of taking this passage literally as fact:


    What they (creationists, as well as literal theists) failed to understand is that this passage was only a simile, so it was meant to be taken metaphorically or symbolic, not meant to be interpreted literally.

    They like this passage, because it allowed them to make up any numbers of time they like. This is why some creationists (eg Ken Ham) can make dinosaurs living in the same period of Adam to Noah.
     
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  9. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Veteran Member

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    They do no such thing. We understand a day and a thousand years aren't literally the same.
     
  10. blü 2

    blü 2 Veteran Member
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    Maths isn't my speciality, but how can a pack of cards be said to have a "lowest entropy state" of its own? As far as the cards are concerned, AKQJ is no more "orderly" than 2760, or A2A9. A human has to impose values (to his or her own taste) before there can be "order" of that kind, no? And no such imposition is objectively more or less valid than any other, no?
     
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  11. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    You are ignoring a fundamental when considering "entropy:" it occurs in a "system," and that system can be open, closed or isolated, and all are different. Therefore, comparisons as you've tried to make do not make sense.
     
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  12. rational experiences

    rational experiences Veteran Member

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    A human is in entirety self present first as the whole host man human present supported by every presence first before study or thesis about any human character or topic.

    Why you said you were the God so you wouldn't destroy created present creation actually.
     
  13. Heyo

    Heyo Veteran Member

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    Information theory, as stated in the OP, deals with the efficient transmission of information.
    And there really are combinations of cards that need fewer bits to transmit to describe some combination than others, even taking into account that some information has to be already present in the sender and the recipient.
    But the OP doesn't know that, he copied the text from somewhere else and believes it is an argument.
    I could explain Shannon entropy to you but I'd have to struggle, it's not an easy to understand concept.

    What has that all to do with genomics?
    The argument of the creationist goes somewhat like this: DNA is a message that contains a high number of information (low Shannon entropy). That information has to come from somewhere. Thus, god is real.
    Which ignores that DNA has a high redundancy (high Shannon entropy) and that the "information" is generated through known natural processes, i.e. doesn't need an intelligent "sender".
     
    #33 Heyo, Mar 28, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2022
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  14. rational experiences

    rational experiences Veteran Member

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    In life human's applying all summation we know one day your self thinking life will be dead.

    Hu man thinking or non capability thinking has proven it changes in the life presence of a human.

    Do you quantify all human reasons by human past and present identities?

    Yes.

    First. First position the human only was the teaching about conscious humans.

    If you die then position human consciousness ceases.

    You are one human. Yet memory the adult us two humans is who you personally are not.

    All die and end.

    Hence conscious advice states my human ancestry communication advice living is deceased.

    Consciousness the topic not biology or thesis a humans ability to thesis biology.

    Consciousness as warnings to humans is direct.

    A whole lot of deceased human ancestors biologies destroyed now just bacterias microbes is your human past.

    As you only use human consciousness as the human you are human warned about your thinking advice.

    As said to my life an ape or monkey cannot thesis science status as humans do as closest living conscious.

    Living is exact hence living consciousness is also exact.
     
  15. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    Don't understand entropy that much. But if it didn't work for evolution it shouldn't work for anything else either.
    But this, quote, 'Blind chance'

    If you go to a casino you will encounter 'Blind chance' on many games such as blackjack, roulette etc..
    So how does the casino come out in front if they rely on 'blind chance' ???
    Answer - by knowing the odds.

    'chance' follows rules like anything else in nature.
    Chance of getting a red over a black? 50%, ie 1/2
    Chance of getting two reds? 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/4 or 25%
    Change of having three reds? 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/8 or 12/5%

    In 1913 someone got 26 blacks in a row at Monte Carlo. That's one chance in 66.6 million. And
    many lost money betting the roulette ball must fall on the red to 'balance' out somehow.
    And that's how the Covid virus evolves - it throws out random variations and one, just one, in
    the right place at the right time, could help that virus to spawn a new variety.
    And that's how the earth created life - as it says in Genesis 1.
     
  16. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    You are - like creationists actually;) - missing the most important feature, namely natural selection.

    The virus undergoes random changes but it is only those changes that confer a reproductive advantage that become established as new forms. So it is not the operation of "blind chance" that leads to evolution. It is the operation of natural selection on chance variations.

    In effect the virus plays in the casino, with an unending supply of money, until it wins.
     
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  17. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    Natural selection.

    You keep ignoring natural selection.

    Natural selection.

    If you include natural selection, it will be done in a matter of minutes.

    Natural selection.

    Again: gradual increase through natural selection.

    Any CLOSED system.
    Earth is not a closed system. The sun feeds it with workable energy 24/7.

    And yet, trees grow from a seed without any need for any intervention - supernatural or otherwise.


    Except that it does. Just like it can make a seed turn into a tree.

    Chance doesn't. Natural selection does.



    Random variation/mutation followed by natural selection.


    This "code" you speak off, is in reality just a complex molecule.
    And random chance didn't. Natural selection did.

    Because it worked.


    Blind chance didn't. Natural selection did?

    Nature doesn't "make decisions".

    Natural selection

    Please stop and read up on natural selection.
    And thermodynamics and how earth is an open system, while you are at it.

    It doesn't. Teleological fallacy.

    Earth has a magnetic field which protects against those damaging sunrays.

    Who says it has "meaning"? What does that even mean?

    DNA is not a language. It's a molecule engaged in a chemical chain reaction.

    1. the earth is not a closed system
    2. natural selection
     
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  18. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Yes. It is astonishing that, over a century and a half after Darwin's book came out, these people still have not taken in the central feature of his hypothesis.

    It shows either pig-headed* stupidity or (perhaps more likely) a deliberate and cynical avoidance of understanding.


    * Possibly a bit unfair to pigs, which seem actually to be fairly intelligent creatures.
     
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  19. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Therefore it is not impossible. I will take the word of scientist who study evolution and my own research over that of a blatent denier of evidence.
     
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  20. wellwisher

    wellwisher Well-Known Member

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    One variable connected to life that is not fully addressed by modern science, is water. Water is the main molecule of life and is a copartner with the the organics of life. Both are needed for life to appear and sustain.

    Experiments were done, in the 1950's, where single cells were dehydrated and the water was replaced by a wide range of solvents, all of which were postulated to support life on other planets. The result was nothing worked in any test cells if water was replaced by any of these solvents.

    The reason for this is the organics within earth based life are all tuned to the properties of water Even the DNA will not function, at all, if water is not there to push, pull, tuck and squeeze the DNA, at the nanoscale, so the DNA can properly align and become bioactive. DNA evolved in water with water being the source of natural selection at the nanoscale. This is also true of RNA and all the proteins. Evolution at the nanoscale, is due to the natural potential inherent within the water environment. The result is a copartnership between water and all the organics molecules of life, since all were chose by the water.

    In terms of entropy lowering and order forming to allow life, the one of the most important nanoscale forces for this is connected to water and can be understood with the water-oil affect. If we mix water and oil and shake we will get an emulsion, but not quite a solution. The reason is the the movement towards the emulsion will create surface tension between the water and oil. This is adding free energy. If we allow this to settle, the surface tension will lower; stored energy lowers, and the water and oil will separate into the order implicit of two phases; layers. All the ordered structural elements of life; even the DNA double helix, are built on the water and oil principle, with water driving the process. Then same applies all the organelles in cells. Water can form order from chaos and does it all the time with organics.

    All the other solvents postulated for life have extra hydrophobic nature, similar to the oil in the analogy. Alcohols, for example, can better mix with organics, compared to water; good cleaner, and will cause the organics of life to form random configurations that are not bioactive.

    The random assumptions of the life sciences; statistical, are bad premises and are still used because water is not taken as seriously as its many contributions to life. This half baked foundation is what makes evolution half baked. Evolution depends too much on chance, whereas water and organics are about order, due to the simple drive of lowering surface tension, the same way each time, to get the repeatable order that is characteristic of life and replication. The DNA is only a hard drive and will not work, unless water is helping to read and write the data.

    Interestingly, water is the second most abundant molecule in the universe, behind only hydrogen; H2. Is this coincidence? The energy difference between H2 and H2O is the energy range used by life. All the organic reactions in life have less energy than the full range, although some rare bacteria are able to use the full range and form hydrogen.

    Biology is too organic centric and substitutes dice and cards, for the directing actions of water. The theory of evolution is thereby made half-baked. If you build a house on a flawed foundation, it will sag with time, which is why I do not accept the current house of evolution. It shows stress cracking due to the poor foundation. Look in the subbasement of science and see for yourself.
     
    #40 wellwisher, Mar 29, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2022
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