1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Infallibility

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Vinayaka, Aug 19, 2018.

  1. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    10,882
    Ratings:
    +10,718
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    It sounds really difficult for you in your day to day life. None of us can walk in the shoes of another. Some of us have had troubles in our lives that can not be imagined by others and are difficult to speak of. I too am one of those people. That being said I’ve largely moved on from my past. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t rear its head from time to time. I feel as if I’ve forgiven those who have hurt me most and through that have forgiven myself. I Rarely consider whether God loves or hates me but I feel through prayer and right action He has enabled me to have the best attitude. That brings peace. I therefore feel blessed in my life and grateful. I have known well the depths of despair but it seems like a distant memory. Sometimes a glimpse of heaven confounds me as I don’t deserve the life I have been given.
     
    #161 Dawnofhope, Aug 24, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2018
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  2. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    35,101
    Ratings:
    +20,762
    Religion:
    Saivite Hindu

    Thank you. This makes sense to me. Being infallible in religious matters is different than being infallible totally. Much like papal infallibility. I like the humility and low profile. Until just now when I looked it up, I didn't know who the current head was.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    10,004
    Ratings:
    +5,280
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    I think it all comes down to whether one accepts whether perfection or and infallibility can possibly exist or not.
     
  4. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    37,753
    Ratings:
    +5,897
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    Maybe this has already been mentioned, but, what is perfection? Is it some objective standard, in the realm of empiricism, or is it something more subjective, in the realm of aesthetic? I may hear a piece of music and think, “Perfect!” Someone else may hear the same music and go, “Garbage!”

    And, what is “infallibility?” Is that also an objective standard, or is it merely being true to one’s own truth?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Creative Creative x 1
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    38,238
    Ratings:
    +11,458
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I am happy to hear that your depths of despair are a distant memory. Everyone has a different life and a different set of circumstances and we all have different capacities. Certain life circumstances are beyond my control and cannot be changed so all I can do is try to cope daily. I try to be grateful for what I do have, but all too often it is difficult to see that. Remember what Abdu'l-Baha said:

    “Joy gives us wings! In times of joy our strength is more vital, our intellect keener, and our understanding less clouded. We seem better able to cope with the world and to find our sphere of usefulness. But when sadness visits us we become weak, our strength leaves us, our comprehension is dim and our intelligence veiled. The actualities of life seem to elude our grasp, the eyes of our spirits fail to discover the sacred mysteries, and we become even as dead beings.” Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 109-110
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  6. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2011
    Messages:
    21,967
    Ratings:
    +10,674
    Religion:
    Vaishnava Hindu
    I haven't read through the whole thread, so someone else may have said this:

    Infallibility typically refers to the Pope, head of the Catholic Church when he speaks ex cathedra, "from the chair", i.e. the chair of St. Peter as leader of the Catholic Church, but only on matters of Church doctrine and theology. The doctrine of papal infallibility was first established in the First Vatican Council (1869-1871) and reaffirmed in the Second Vatican Council (962–1965). Infallibility doesn't mean the Pope is without sin. As a mortal man he is certainly capable of sin in his private life, and even when administrating the Church. But Church belief is that when he speaks only as the vicar of Christ, the Holy Spirit keeps him on the straight and narrow. So, if he is complicit in the abuse scandal, he is committing sin and is not considered infallible then.

    An example of his infallibility is the doctrine that Mary the mother of Jesus was preserved from original sin in order to give birth to the son of God. That's something Catholics must believe. Do I believe the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (Mary's) or papal infallibility? Not particularly because I am not Catholic and do not believe the theology. Most, if not all Protestant denominations, as well as the Eastern Orthodox and Anglican Churches reject papal infallibility also.

    The Eastern Orthodox Church has no single head; the Ecumenical Patriarch (Patriarch of Constantinople) has primacy of honor, primus inter pares, but he has no spiritual or administrative authority over any church. Orthodox bishops rule as a body, a synod, which, like the Pope, is said to be guided by the Holy Spirit. But Orthodox bishops can and do sin and even commit civil crimes. A couple of them of the Orthodox Church in America have been defrocked and removed from office. One was even facing deportation back to Romania some years ago for his involvement in Nazi war crimes. While he didn't commit them, he turned a blind eye. He gave up his American citizenship and fled to Portugal.

    Glad you asked? :p
    .
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Creative Creative x 1
  7. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    35,101
    Ratings:
    +20,762
    Religion:
    Saivite Hindu
    Yes, Jai, others have mentioned that, and I was aware of it before. What I meant in the OP is the absolute infallibility some folks attribute to their scriptures or prophets or leaders. You know ... the stuff that dreams are made of.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. atanu

    atanu Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2010
    Messages:
    14,932
    Ratings:
    +3,817
    Religion:
    Hindu
    I agree.

    I think it is a property of ahamkara-manas to feel and act infallible. We are conditioned and so we have personalities that differ from each other. I do not think that a jiva, on account of being conditioned, can ever be infallible, else a Jiva would be called Ishwara.

    We do not know whence the "I", yet we assert infallibility for the (incorrect) "I".
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2011
    Messages:
    21,967
    Ratings:
    +10,674
    Religion:
    Vaishnava Hindu
    Yeah, I can't believe that either. Not when the Rig Veda even questions itself. I think the Nasadiya Sukta is one of the most honest pieces of literature, scripture, poetry, hymn ever. Even the Puranas, when they seem to contradict themselves and each other, really don't as far as I believe.
     
  10. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    10,882
    Ratings:
    +10,718
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I understand depression because I had a major depressive episode, severe with suicidal ideation for nearly two years. I didn’t see a psychiatrist or take medication. I sought God and applied the remedy of His Teachings to my life. It was during this time I became a Baha’i. I haven’t been depressed since.

    I appreciate we’re all different and some of us despite our best efforts will have a lifetime of being psychologically disabled, need to take medication and see psychiatrists. I know this because my mother had bipolar disorder with frequent admissions to hospital for 25 years.
     
  11. `mud

    `mud Just old
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2011
    Messages:
    5,700
    Ratings:
    +1,623
    Religion:
    ~life~
    Been there...done that...never gone back !
    A beer a day...none this week...groceries tomorrow !
    Blood thinner and B12...that's it...and chocolate !!!!
     
  12. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    10,004
    Ratings:
    +5,280
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    So far it’s kept us united as one world community and is working well.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    35,101
    Ratings:
    +20,762
    Religion:
    Saivite Hindu
    So all the ex-Bahai's and covenant breakers, family members kicked out, they're all still there with you? That doesn't sound like being united as one. But I suppose if you have 10 people, and 8 quit, the other two are still united, if you want to tell people that, and just pretend the other 8 didn't exist.
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    38,238
    Ratings:
    +11,458
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Do you think that it was God Himself that helped you or do you think that it was the fact that you trusted in God that helped you or do you think that it was following His Teachings that helped you, or maybe it is a combination or all of the above?

    Of course there are other factors that come into play, such as support from family and friends; this is very important. Before I got married I did not have any family or friends, all I had was my mother whom the psychiatrist said made my situation worse. After I got married, I always had my husband to turn to, but I had no other family or friends, until I started posting on forums in January 2013.

    What led me to see a psychiatrist was another diagnosis but I don’t want to share that here. So, having struggled with that condition for 12 years I really needed a psychiatrist and drugs for a given length of time, although later I was able to get off those drugs after I found homeopathy. Interestingly, it was a medical doctor who was a Baha’i that was my first homeopath. I do not have major depression anymore, my primary diagnosis is anxiety and PTSD, but it is situational so if my life was not so stressful, with so many things to worry about, I do not think I would have anxiety at all.
    If I had known better I would not stayed on antidepressant drugs for five years, but that was all I knew at the time. They did break the pattern of behavior that I had but they never really cured the depression, they just masked it. Only after I went for homeopathy did I really change. I vowed never to take antidepressant drugs again and I never did.

    After that, I still had some serious issues with grief reactions related to my PTSD, and this never improved until I finally turned to God in June 2014 when I was suicidal. It has gradually continued to improve since then. Before that I went to various counselors for my grief and PTSD, but since I turned to God I have not been to a counselor. They never really helped me much anyway. It was turning to God and getting social support on various forums that really helped me most. These forums are a lifeline for people like me who just do not like socializing in person. I might be able to start attending Baha’i activities someday but right now I feel like the Baha’is are better off without me, given my inner feelings that I would like to keep inner.
     
  15. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    10,004
    Ratings:
    +5,280
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    The Baha’i Faith is committed to peace, love and unity however from time to time there have been a few who have attempted to split our religion into sects like the other major Faiths so they have been expelled.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  16. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    10,004
    Ratings:
    +5,280
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    Personally I don’t know all the answers to these questions but I believe we can gain much insight into these things by consulting the Holy Books and lives associated with Great Beings such as Buddha and Christ, Moses or Baha’u’llah.

    I think we all have both inner sight and inner ears with which we can recognise perfection related to spiritual truth or God.

    To me I recognise perfection in the lives of these Great Beings and find from extensive investigation that their words and deeds reflect perfection.

    So really, I cannot explain perfection in words to you as it’s a spiritual reality beyond description but I feel confident that you can find it if you explore the words, deeds and lives of these Great Teachers.

    So for me, I have seen perfection through these Beings but can not explain it as it’s a spiritual reality the individual can only see for him or her self not through the description of other people.

    These Beings are like pure mirrors which reflect the light of the Sun of Reality or God or the Ultimate Truth.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Useful Useful x 1
  17. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    10,882
    Ratings:
    +10,718
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    The biblical verses in question are more like the art of story telling rather than the more precise and detailed account of an historian.
     
  18. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    10,882
    Ratings:
    +10,718
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    It’s remarkable how little we know about the life of Jesus. Prior to His Ministry, practically nothing. Then if we were to read any of the Gospels out aloud, it would only take a couple of hours. It’s like the length of a movie. Perhaps its the maximum length of time the story of Jesus would be told to others. Even the best productions should be kept within two hours. The tough part is having those parables that are like a cute short story, yet have profound mystery that may take hours to unravel.

    There’s middle ground between an historic account and allegorical embellished stories and the parables. Eventually it’s hard to unravel what is literally true, the profound stories Christ told, and the story of His life that is almost parable like in places.

    We have plenty of people who want to take it all literally two thousand years later. I’m happy I’m not one of them. It’s still the Word of God though, whether the Words of the Manifestation Himself, or the ‘inspired’ story of His life.
     
  19. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    10,882
    Ratings:
    +10,718
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Don’t you love the irony and contradictions! Adam is as far back as we know about and what do we know of Adam? Nothing, and we know even less about whoever came before. Who follows Adam anymore anyhow?
     
  20. Marcion

    Marcion gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    1,795
    Ratings:
    +962
    Religion:
    None! Panentheism; Neo-Humanism; Orthodox Tantra-Yoga; Manava (human) Dharma
    So does seeing the Chistian Bible as the "Word of God" mean that you like or feel inspired by every idea and word in the New Testament? Is that your actual experience when reading it?
     
Loading...