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Featured Infallibility

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Vinayaka, Aug 19, 2018.

  1. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    It is infallible if you interpret it correctly. Just saying not that I agree with that position.
     
  2. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    In my early 20s I abandoned my medical studies to search for the meaning of life. I had briefly become a born again Christian but after a few months had an epiphany that I needed to step back and reassess.

    I became interested in Hinduism, Buddhism and meditation so went into the country, meditated daily, as I aspired to some higher state of consciousness I couldn’t define. After a year and a half of having failed to achieve the mystical experience I thought would be inevitable I become depressed.

    I concluded there probably was no God and prayer was useless. After a while I became so depressed I could hardly do anything. I then turned to God and the heaviness of my heart lifted. I returned to church, and moved back to the city. I started going to Buddhist meetings too. I was frustrated though and so prayed to God to guide me to a community of like minded people.

    Soon after I was invited to a Baha’i meeting. After 8 months of investigating the Baha’i Faith felt the next step was to become a Baha’i. I had some dreams with Bahá’u’lláh and Abdu’l-Bahá and prayed and studied the writings intensely for the next few years.

    I then felt called by God to return to medical school. When I graduated I got married had children and started serving on the assembly and as an assistant which I’ve been doing on/off for the last 20 years.

    I’ve been a Baha’i nearly 30 years. Maybe because I had such a tough 5 years searching, and then was confirmed in my new found faith with dreams and visions, I’ve cherished it a lot more than if it had come without effort.
     
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  3. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    I like the explanation about a poetic expression and that resonates.

    Of course the gospels may well have been written after the destruction of Jerusalem and we don’t know for certain. I used to believe He was referring to real events but think He was just referring to the story. The story of Noah seems strongly allegorical to me in what it says about our relationship with God, His Manifestation, the consequences of following Him or turning away, and most of all the Eternal Covenant of God.

    According to Pew research nearly 70% of the worlds population will be either Christian or Muslim in another 50 years or so. So in that sense that's 70% who believe in Christ given that Muslims see Christ as an important prophet. That's impressive numbers as far as I can see.

    On the other hand Baha'u'llah said:

    The vitality of men’s belief in God is dying out in every land; nothing short of His wholesome medicine can ever restore it. The corrosion of ungodliness is eating into the vitals of human society; what else but the Elixir of His potent Revelation can cleanse and revive it?

    Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 200

    So in a sense, religion will increasingly become a empty word on peoples lips.

    That is part of the age we're living though. Where hearts grow cold towards God and His Messengers. So I think you are right that on the whole we are blind. That (religion) which could open our eyes, often contributes to that blindness.

    I agree.
     
  4. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    We can easily have strong leaders without attaching the infallible label. In Ahmadiyya, is the prophet infallible? I don't know. But I do like the Ahmadiyya community. Nice people.
     
  5. `mud

    `mud Just old
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    Infallibility to quackery
    Finding the right point in the middle.
    The task is insurmountable !
     
  6. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Veteran Member

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    Here's the context. Explain it.
    10 Now it came to pass, when Adoni-zedek king of Jerusalem had heard how Joshua had taken Ai, and had utterly destroyed it; as he had done to Jericho and her king, so he had done to Ai and her king; and how the inhabitants of Gibeon had made peace with Israel, and were among them; 2 That they feared greatly, because Gibeon was a great city, as one of the royal cities, and because it was greater than Ai, and all the men thereof were mighty.

    3 Wherefore Adoni-zedek king of Jerusalem sent unto Hoham king of Hebron, and unto Piram king of Jarmuth, and unto Japhia king of Lachish, and unto Debir king of Eglon, saying, 4 Come up unto me, and help me, that we may smite Gibeon: for it hath made peace with Joshua and with the children of Israel.

    5 Therefore the five kings of the Amorites, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, the king of Eglon, gathered themselves together, and went up, they and all their hosts, and encamped before Gibeon, and made war against it.

    6 And the men of Gibeon sent unto Joshua to the camp to Gilgal, saying, Slack not thy hand from thy servants; come up to us quickly, and save us, and help us: for all the kings of the Amorites that dwell in the mountains are gathered together against us.

    7 So Joshua ascended from Gilgal, he, and all the people of war with him, and all the mighty men of valour.

    8 And the LORD said unto Joshua, Fear them not: for I have delivered them into thine hand; there shall not a man of them stand before thee.

    9 Joshua therefore came unto them suddenly, and went up from Gilgal all night.

    10 And the LORD discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them along the way that goeth up to Beth-horon, and smote them to Azekah, and unto Makkedah.

    11 And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Beth-horon, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.

    12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

    13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

    14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.
     
  7. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Veteran Member

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    Sure, prophets used symbolic language. How about historians?
     
  8. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Veteran Member

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    I like what you are arguing. I hadn't read this post yet, and put the same verses in a post to IT. What I have found with Baha'is, context doesn't matter. I've argued that it is just ancient people embellishing the story. That doesn't fly with them so much. The Baha'is prefer the "symbolic" interpretation. That way they can say God implanted clues in his Holy Books for the people with "spiritual" eyes to see. And all the rest of the people to argue whether it's literal or mythic fantasy.
     
  9. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Veteran Member

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    I should have read ahead. You say "myth" as if it is not a bad thing to be in a book that is supposed to be the "Word of God"? That's a big problem for Christians, 'cause they are taught to trust as true and without errors... and when talking about historical things, literal. If it allegorized embellishments, then what about the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, walking on water and the rest? Embellishments, symbolism, or literal? Literal gives Christians a solid foundation of Jesus being the very literal Son of God. Symbolism? What? Symbolically rose from the dead and walk on water? Big deal. Although I know Baha'is, for some reason believe in the Virgin Birth, I don't know why. I'm still not buying into it being "scientifically" feasible, but you're the doctor.

    Anyway, I still go with embellishment. They had to argue the case to make Jesus greater than everybody and everything, amidst claims from kings and prophets of things like rising from the dead and being born in a miraculous way. The writers out did them all and made Jesus virtually God himself. And his followers, the dummies, took the writings so literal that they believed Jesus was God himself.
     
  10. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Veteran Member

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    But Adrian just said it might be allegorized embellishments. Why isn't embellishments a reasonable explanation? Don't worry I know. It is because it has to be God's Word. If it had embellishments from the writers, then it can't be truly God's Word. But a secret, mystical, (absolutely ridiculous), symbolic passage, right in the middle of a historical narrative, can be easily explained as God having put it there to test his "true" believers.

    But what was the science like in the days of Moses and Jesus and Muhammad? How could people in the ancient world know that the Sun couldn't stop for a few hours? How could they know that dead people don't come back to life and rise into the sky? Like the whole thing about Jesus coming back to life. Verse after verse of stories of Jesus meeting and talking and even eating with people after he had been killed. All those verses symbolic? What is the symbolism? I think the writers meant for the readers to believe it. But... I wonder... did God really want them to write what they did?
     
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  11. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Veteran Member

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    So the Bible doesn't make Adam to be a manifestation, in fact, they make him out to be the one that caused the fall of man. But Islam makes him a manifestation... a "perfectly polished mirror", ? And the first one? But don't Baha'is believe there were manifestations prior to Adam? And this is not contradictions?
     
  12. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    I wish I had so much time.
    I am not a Prophet of God to explain all those my friend.
    But there are similar verses which Abdulbaha explianed in other instances which might be applicable. For example, in those statements regarding God sending down stones and killed many, it is often interpreted as God caused them to spiritually die. So, it is not a literal death or literal sending down stones or hail.
    Sun and moon have many symbolic meanings. You can find various figurative interpretations in the Book of iqan by Bahaullah.
     
  13. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    Of course we know that the Gospels were written after the destruction of Jerusalem - does anyone even dispute that? The question is whether Jesus really said anything about the destruction of Jerusalem if he lived and died before it happened? Or did the Gospel writer skillfully interweave ancient Jewish prophecy and recent historical narrative into a religious mythology and put the words into Jesus mouth as divine apokalypsis? Certainly looks that way doesn't it? But then, what price "infallibility"? How can we ever know whether or not Jesus really said any of the words attributed to him - let alone judge their religious or spiritual (let alone historical) veracity? Of course the answer is - we can't. We have no idea whether Jesus really ever even strung two coherent phrases together let alone whether his message was consistent with Muhammad's or Baha'u'llah's.

    So we're back to the numbers game again are we? I thought we'd kicked that into touch already. 70% of humans probably used to believe that volcanic eruptions were the result of God touching the mountains, 70% of people probably used to believe that humans were specially created by God and were not the result of biological evolution (heck 70% of people probably still believe that now), 70% of people used to believe that disease was caused by demons, or that the earth was flat, or that if they sailed too far they'd either fall off or be eaten by dragons or whatever...70% of people can very easily be mistaken...70% of people probably believe that 70% is an impressive number...70% of people are probably wrong. I'm glad I'm not in the 70%.
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Thanks for sharing. You brought some things to mind...

    Maybe I took the Faith for granted since it was so easy for me to recognize it, I don’t really know. All I know is that shortly after I became a Baha’i I began to heave serious emotional problems, but that was no doubt all latent within me because of unresolved childhood issues. That went on for 12 years and then I married my husband three weeks after we met and he was also a Baha’i who had serious emotional issues. Both of us had childhood issues because our parents did not want us, and both of us had depression and anxiety, although his depression was situational and mine was endogenous.

    Anyhow, about a year before I got married I had already sought help from a psychiatrist so I was on the road to recovery. That took upwards of 15 years of my life, and during those years I had nothing to do with the Faith. My husband also had issues so he was not participating in any Baha’i activities either. I still had to work and make a living but because of our childhood issues we never had any children.

    I always knew who Baha’u’llah was but I never had any feelings for Him, and any feelings I had towards God were negative. That is putting it mildly. I blamed God for all my suffering because after all, it says in the Writings that God sends the tests. I know all the reasons tests are supposed to be good for us but that does not change the suffering incurred, relentless suffering. Perhaps if I did not have endogenous depression and anxiety it would not have been so difficult to endure it. I was never able to get any help from antidepressant drugs, they nearly killed me, but after I quit taking them I got a lot of help from homeopathic medicine which I took for about 15 years. I never had major depression again after that but I will always have dysthymia. A good day for me is when I am not depressed or anxious about something; I don’t expect much more and I do not need any more than that.

    A lot of people seem to think “turning to God” is a cure for depression, but it is no more of a cure for depression than it is a cure for cancer. It helps not to shut God out but it is difficult to love a God you believe is deliberately torturing you just to teach you a lesson. I am quite certain it will all become clear after I die and go to the spiritual world, but meanwhile.....

    I have lost everything that matters most to me in this life, except my husband, and I am sure more loss is on the horizon. This gives the words “the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away” a whole new meaning for me. I believe we have free will so we are responsible to do everything possible to help ourselves but sometimes that is not enough. The buck stops with God since God is omnipotent, so God could help if He wanted to help.

    “God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 73

    “Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

    I cannot help but think logically so I cannot believe God is “All-Loving” just because “some” scriptures say that. Scriptures also say that God has wrath and directs it at whomsoever He willeth. To deny that is to deny the Bible, the Qur’an and the Writings of Baha’u’llah.
     
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  15. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    So the virgin birth is presumably to be interpreted symbolically then? How so? What is the symbolism? Or is this another case of cherry po...er...I mean...picking (unfortunate Freudian slip there!).
     
  16. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    How do we know scientifically it is impossible? Exceptions can happen.
    Abdulbaha explained it in the Book 'some answered questions'.
     
  17. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    Then how do we know that the sun couldn't stand still?
     
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  18. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Look at the explanation of Abdulbaha about why having a child without father is logically possible. Now, explain how Sun standing still logically is possible.
     
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  19. KT Shamim

    KT Shamim Ahmadiyya Muslim Community

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    The declaration of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)
    "There was a prophet of God in India who was dark in colour and his name was ‘Kahan’." (“Taarikh-i-Hamdaan Dailami” Baab-ul-Kaaf. See Pocket book p: 854 by Malik Abdur Rehman Khadim 6th edition Published in 1952)

    The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community which is nothing but the true Islam believe Krishna, Zoroaster and Buddha were all Prophets of God though their teachings as is usually the case were corrupted by their subsequent followers.

    https://www.alislam.org/hindi/Shri-Krishan-Ji-Aur-Kalki-Avatar.pdf (Hindi)
    Hinduism (English)

    Islam instructs us not only to respect all Prophets of other major religions of the world but to believe in all previous Prophets and lack of belief in their truth renders a Muslim's faith invalid.
     
  20. KT Shamim

    KT Shamim Ahmadiyya Muslim Community

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    The founding Prophet of our community, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian (on him be peace) who nothing but a slave of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was infallible as far as religious matters are concerned. That is required because without some sort of infallibility protecting their commandments it becomes useless to be instructed to obey all their commandments. While it is important to look for and find wisdom behind commandments however disobedience until agreement in all matters is found leads to a very inefficient community.

    That is why choice of leadership matters and the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community (thank you for your compliment) is full of nice people for having the best leader in the world.
     
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