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Infallibility

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Isn't that the scary thing of all religious groups? They talk all sweet and nice and only about a few that won't scare you off... and then, once they got you in, they get into the "deep" stuff. And that does happen, as I'm sure you know a lot with Baha'is, because they have their nice little, cozy fireside chats. They give you those things like all religions are one, God is one, there is only one race the human race and it all sounds fantastic, but who knows what lurks in the untranslated texts. And, if a translation can't be as accurate as the original language, then what?

That means different people are going to have different interpretations, and then split off into different sects? The Baha'is always say; "No, it will never happen". But then some of us point out how it's already happened and then they say; "But those people are covenant breakers and don't have much of a following." But that's still a sect isn't it? I don't know.

I agree with you on all the rules and enforcing of rules that could happen if Baha'is become the majority. And to that they say that they won't impose their laws on the world. So what's that all about? They're going to be in the majority and allow the minority, that aren't Baha'is, to have a second set of laws? And, since they are supposed to obey the government, the Bahai's would be obligated to follow those laws also?

I guess I should mention "infallibility" to stay on topic. When has any religion ever been infallible? Yet, so many make that claim?

In the end, all the answers to the questions you ask and remarks you make are for you to decide upon.

What to consider here CG is also what all Baha'i have had to consider and decide for themselves. Is Baha'u'llah who He says He is and has Baha'u'llah offered advice from God, advice that is Infallible. If this is so, then all that He has offered will unfold. All the unheaded warnings will have consequences, to which some have already been realised.

Thus the fireside chats can now take on a greater urgency, the world is hurtling towards a rapid change, a change many of us will not make it through. We can not avoid this now, we have long past that point of no return. In saying that I do not see it as doom and gloom, I see it now as a much needed cleansing of the mind of man, a mind lost in the negative aspects of this material world.

How hard is it for us to see, at the least, we are but One People and every person should have the basic needs of life and all of us should help them to have it.

Regards Tony
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
What better evidence of the claim than the person that gives it is the first to live to the standard of that Message and that at every moment they would give their life to prove the Truth of it?

If nothing else, it is Trustworthiness and Truthfulness in its pure form. A bar none of us could raise as high.

It has been asked of us to examine the claim and decide was it worthy of bondage and banishment? If it was not, it was asked of us to judge between them that persecute and the Message.

Regards Tony

If that is your bar for evidence of the truth of a claim, them most religions are true, even though they conflict with each other. That’s nonsensical.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I require more and better evidence for an extraordinary claim, that is the difference.
Okay, I understand. :)
I find it interesting how we all process information differently. Of course that is due to myriad factors such as childhood upbringing, education, and adult experiences, as well as our genetics. It is no coincidence that everyone in my nuclear family became Baha'is, when none of us had any religion at all before that.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Okay, I understand. :)
I find it interesting how we all process information differently. Of course that is due to myriad factors such as childhood upbringing, education, and adult experiences, as well as our genetics. It is no coincidence that everyone in my nuclear family became Baha'is, when none of us had any religion at all before that.

Sure. And I appreciate your give and take. I can get quite direct and pointed sometimes. It isn’t a mean streak, it’s just a combination of trying to use precise language and trying to be heard over the din.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Sure. And I appreciate your give and take. I can get quite direct and pointed sometimes. It isn’t a mean streak, it’s just a combination of trying to use precise language and trying to be heard over the din.
I am also quite direct so I am comfortable with that mode of communication. ;)
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If that is your bar for evidence of the truth of a claim, them most religions are true, even though they conflict with each other. That’s nonsensical.

That is a greater truth, that all the Major Faiths are from the One Source.

The conflicts are what mankind has made from these Faiths, wheras no faith was meant exclusivly for just one people. We were not ready to embrace our Oneness and we still struggle, this time we will make it.

Regards Tony
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
That is a greater truth, that all the Major Faiths are from the One Source.

The conflicts are what mankind has made from these Faiths, wheras no faith was meant exclusivly for just one people. We were not ready to embrace our Oneness and we still struggle, this time we will make it.

Regards Tony

Interesting viewpoint. Kinda “New Age” sounding.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
On the side of this thread, I'm sad to read the above sentence. If only our days could all be so good that we're jumping for joy, but so few of my friends are really happy, despite how secure, safe or comfortable they might be.

Contentment, that intangible willowthewisp...... for so many.
I am safe and secure, healthy and financially well off, but I have life circumstances that are beyond my control. I also have a genetic predisposition to depression and anxiety, and that along with my life circumstances makes life much more difficult for me than for those around me, such as the people I work with who are happy all the time.

I just have to deal with life day by day. I get one problem solved and another emerges. It never ends so I finally gave up hoping it would. I just ride the wave and deal with it day by day. God? I don't know if or how He is involved in this... I have a deist bent so the personal God is not something that helps me much.

I am inwardly content despite all my tests and difficulties, but I have not always been this way, only since I came back to the Baha'i Faith after a very long hiatus.

Most people seek personal happiness. I do not know anyone who doesn't. Personal happiness is not something I seek or aspire to because I know that is not the purpose of my existence. I am happiest when I do not have to think about myself at all.
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Interesting viewpoint. Kinda “New Age” sounding.

It was the viewpoint that Baha'u'llah gave us in the mid 1800's. He said that God forewarns us, gives us the chance to prevent the results of our disunity.

I see this ties into the progression of all Faiths, each step trying to show us the power we posess if we use our spiritual mind based in virtue over our animal instincts and tendencies.

It is said human is at the end of darkness and the beginning of light, we have within us all capacities.

The day science works with the Universal Mind, is the day religious superstitions will also vanish. Both Science and Faith will bring about amazing scientific advancement as the human species evolves towards its potential.

Regards Tony
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
It was the viewpoint that Baha'u'llah gave us in the mid 1800's. He said that God forewarns us, gives us the chance to prevent the results of our disunity.

I see this ties into the progression of all Faiths, each step trying to show us the power we posess if we use our spiritual mind based in virtue over our animal instincts and tendencies.

It is said human is at the end of darkness and the beginning of light, we have within us all capacities.

The day science works with the Universal Mind, is the day religious superstitions will also vanish. Both Science and Faith will bring about amazing scientific advancement as the human species evolves towards its potential.

Regards Tony

I have had conversations with several people who are into that religion. Lots of assertions, no substance.
Faith has never brought about scientific advancement, but has often opposed it.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have had conversations with several people who are into that religion. Lots of assertions, no substance.
Faith has never brought about scientific advancement, but has often opposed it.

Times are achanging :)

I personally think that a women unveiling herself in the middle of Persia in the 1850's and saying the age of the Equality of Women is upon us, being strangled and thrown down a well in her young age, because of her dominence over most mens thoughts, is great substance of what change Baha'u'llah brought about.

I think a teaching also in the 1800's that taught Science and Religion must become the wings of one bird, is also great substance. Science needs spiritual principals, religion needs science to do away with superstition, as they both aid in finding truth.

Unless of course you think none of these heroic actions or elevated principals play any part whatsoever in the collective mind of man.

Regards Tony
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Isn't that the scary thing of all religious groups? They talk all sweet and nice and only about a few that won't scare you off... and then, once they got you in, they get into the "deep" stuff. And that does happen, as I'm sure you know a lot with Baha'is, because they have their nice little, cozy fireside chats. They give you those things like all religions are one, God is one, there is only one race the human race and it all sounds fantastic, but who knows what lurks in the untranslated texts. And, if a translation can't be as accurate as the original language, then what?
Yes, I know...... fortunately I can't see myself being invited for comfy chats, one reason being that I would by now have earned myself a reputation, the other being that after 180 years of Bahai there aren't any around here.

That means different people are going to have different interpretations, and then split off into different sects? The Baha'is always say; "No, it will never happen". But then some of us point out how it's already happened and then they say; "But those people are covenant breakers and don't have much of a following." But that's still a sect isn't it? I don't know.
As long as Bahai keeps breaking itself up it can't do any harm. Queen Victoria's letter writer got that 'just right' with that 'it'll grow if it's good' letter. I chuckle whenever that is mentioned fondly by Bahais ...... an late friend who wrote the most dreadful poetry paid handsomely to have a book published full of his dreadful work and then made us all have a copy of it, expecting us to learn the poems by heart so that we could make fond mention of them; he sent a copy to the Poet Laureate of the time who wrote back, telling that the poems were clearly unique in style, with the most individual rhythms that would be remembered by any who read them........ he went on to say that only time would tell if they would be found in the present day, or lay like lost gemstones to be unearthed like treasure trove in the distant hereafter..... a letter which my friend clutched lovingly to heart, secure in the knowledge that at last he was discovered. I expect that the poet laureate did indeed make mention of that bloody book across dinner tables from time to time after that. :p
And so I expect it will be with some Bahai writings. When reduced in precis to bare bones, with nightingales and mystic storks shot down from the verses etc, one is left with very dry bones.

I agree with you on all the rules and enforcing of rules that could happen if Baha'is become the majority. And to that they say that they won't impose their laws on the world. So what's that all about? They're going to be in the majority and allow the minority, that aren't Baha'is, to have a second set of laws? And, since they are supposed to obey the government, the Bahai's would be obligated to follow those laws also?
Yep. All true. Frankly, if the World might ever become so misguided and daft as to permit such a World Order to sneak up upon it, then the World will deserve what it gets from such an insidious 'come into my parlour and warm yourself' kind of approach. A bit like the audience all shouting out to little Red Riding Hood 'Run! Bloody run!'.

I guess I should mention "infallibility" to stay on topic. When has any religion ever been infallible? Yet, so many make that claim?
It's yer 'umans, innit?
We're all just a latent mess, I'm afraid, and our much hoped for perfections turn to junk given enough time.

I get the impression that @Vinayaka isn't too upset with human fallibility, that living in a chaotic world is actually ok, exciting even, with a long historical line of God's involved in chaos all of their own. As a Deist I accept that chaos is our birthplace as well as our grave and that what we embrace today we will scorn tomorrow. In any event everything will be alright, in the end. We humans aren't so special as we think.

And Bahai?
I'm never going to write about Bahai in the same way again, just trying to tell the World that Bahai is insidious double[-think is pointless, because the World won't ever be listening until it gets a bill that it doesn't like, or whatever.

In future, and for evermore my comments about Bahai must be attempts at chuckles and laughs. It's a bit late to learn how to be a comedian but where Bahai is concerned it's going to be a worthy cause.

:p
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I am safe and secure, healthy and financially well off, but I have life circumstances that are beyond my control. I also have a genetic predisposition to depression and anxiety, and that along with my life circumstances makes life much more difficult for me than for those around me, such as the people I work with who are happy all the time.
It's strange, don't you think (?), that safe, secure, well and rich folks can still be anxious and sad...? I knew a ridiculously rich man who was perpetually upset in various depressions and anxieties, was terrified that he would wake up one morning and find that all his wealth had evaporated. Just like the well-owner frightened of ever being thirsty.

I hope your days are all happy and contented from now on, if that could be possible.

I just have to deal with life day by day. I get one problem solved and another emerges. It never ends so I finally gave up hoping it would.
@Trailblazer! HOLD THAT THOUGHT!
Did you ever hear of the boxer called Chris Ewbank?
I never liked him, his elitist attitude, attention seeking clothes, huge converted juggernaut private vehicle, etc etc .....

...... until he gave the most brilliant advice one morning on the radio. A sneaky interviewer asked him :- And what advice do you have for the World today, Mr Ewbank, because I feel sure that you'll have quite a lot for us all?

He replied (in similar words) :-
Only this........ each morning when you wake up you have to get up and many of us don't want to get up. So learn to enjoy waking up and getting up. And then you have to brush your teeth, a miserable time waste for many, so enjoy brushing your teeth, and from there on for the whole day you'll be faced with things that you don't want to have to do or face. You must learn to enjoy them all, every single part of every thing that you have to do must become an enjoyment, for ever, for your whole life.

I will never forget Chris Ewbank.

:)
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Times are achanging :)

I personally think that a women unveiling herself in the middle of Persia in the 1850's and saying the age of the Equality of Women is upon us, being strangled and thrown down a well in her young age, because of her dominence over most mens thoughts, is great substance of what change Baha'u'llah brought about.

I think a teaching also in the 1800's that taught Science and Religion must become the wings of one bird, is also great substance. Science needs spiritual principals, religion needs science to do away with superstition, as they both aid in finding truth.

Unless of course you think none of these heroic actions or elevated principals play any part whatsoever in the collective mind of man.

Regards Tony

Heroic actions occur without religion all the time.
The word “spiritual” has come to have no meaning. What is your difinition? What makes a principal spiritual?

Not sure what you mean by your first paragraph. Are you saying being strangled and thrown down a well was a good thing?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Heroic actions occur without religion all the time.
The word “spiritual” has come to have no meaning. What is your difinition? What makes a principal spiritual?

Not sure what you mean by your first paragraph. Are you saying being strangled and thrown down a well was a good thing?

Agreed the word spiritual has become and empty container. The Messages of the Bab and Baha'u'llah have again filled the cup, the cup we are now asked to drink from.

Also all hero's are just that and that is what living with the spirit of faith is, giving of yourself for the good of all. Many that do these acts are unaware of the source but they all say the same thing, it was the right thing to do.

The event Tahirih faced. Tahirih was a disciple of the Bab, an educated women, vary rare in 1850 Persia. Had a knowledge of the Quran far supassing any Mulla, but she was a women only fit in their eyes to be a slave to a man.

She met the Bab in her dreams and when she read His writings instantly accepted His message, she became a Disciple of the Bab and was the only one of the 18 that did not meet him in person. She lived a spiritual life, not interested what the world could offer. Nasiri'd-Din Shah, the king of Persia, met with Tahirih, offering to marry her if she recanted her Faith. Tahirih turned down the offer with poetry: “Kingdom, wealth, and power for thee / Beggary, exile, and loss for me / If the former be good, it’s thine / If the latter is hard, it’s mine."

She gave her life for all Women and it is that sacrifice that gave women equality with men in this age. All actions done for the good of all, has lasting effects. This is what it is to be living in the Spiritual worlds of God while living this material life.

It is a big quesrion to cover in such a small reply as Spirit is life.

Regards Tony
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Agreed the word spiritual has become and empty container. The Messages of the Bab and Baha'u'llah have again filled the cup, the cup we are now asked to drink from.

Also all hero's are just that and that is what living with the spirit of faith is, giving of yourself for the good of all. Many that do these acts are unaware of the source but they all say the same thing, it was the right thing to do.

The event Tahirih faced. Tahirih was a disciple of the Bab, an educated women, vary rare in 1850 Persia. Had a knowledge of the Quran far supassing any Mulla, but she was a women only fit in their eyes to be a slave to a man.

She met the Bab in her dreams and when she read His writings instantly accepted His message, she became a Disciple of the Bab and was the only one of the 18 that did not meet him in person. She lived a spiritual life, not interested what the world could offer. Nasiri'd-Din Shah, the king of Persia, met with Tahirih, offering to marry her if she recanted her Faith. Tahirih turned down the offer with poetry: “Kingdom, wealth, and power for thee / Beggary, exile, and loss for me / If the former be good, it’s thine / If the latter is hard, it’s mine."

She gave her life for all Women and it is that sacrifice that gave women equality with men in this age. All actions done for the good of all, has lasting effects. This is what it is to be living in the Spiritual worlds of God while living this material life.

It is a big quesrion to cover in such a small reply as Spirit is life.

Regards Tony

I don’t know how you were able to determine the knowledge level of a given person from so long ago. Sounds like someone is just filling in the blanks with what sounds good.

Women do not have equality with men in many things. In the middle east, women are treated like property.


You must be using a non-tradirional definition of faith. That is usually the word used by a religious person when they have no sound evidence to back up a claim. I’ve been down this rabbit hole before. You cannot demonstrate that a god exists, and you cannot demonstrate that a messenger has ever recieved a message from said god.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don’t know how you were able to determine the knowledge level of a given person from so long ago. Sounds like someone is just filling in the blanks with what sounds good.

Women do not have equality with men in many things. In the middle east, women are treated like property.


You must be using a non-tradirional definition of faith. That is usually the word used by a religious person when they have no sound evidence to back up a claim. I’ve been down this rabbit hole before. You cannot demonstrate that a god exists, and you cannot demonstrate that a messenger has ever recieved a message from said god.

Milton that is entirely for you to decide. Muhammad taught there is no compulsion in religion. That is always valid, it means God forces no one to believe, but will always guide and give us the required wisdom, then mans choices balance this world.

The equality of men and women is set, this does no mean sameness, it means in capacity of Spirit there is no Gender.

In this life I see women as far more capable of the virtues than men and I see they will lead the path to peace.

I wish you always well and happy.

Regards Tony
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Milton that is entirely for you to decide. Muhammad taught there is no compulsion in religion. That is always valid, it means God forces no one to believe, but will always guide and give us the required wisdom, then mans choices balance this world.

The equality of men and women is set, this does no mean sameness, it means in capacity of Spirit there is no Gender.

In this life I see women as far more capable of the virtues than men and I see they will lead the path to peace.

I wish you always well and happy.

Regards Tony

Nobody in your religion has ever tried to compel me to believe anything.

I think I remember that the Quran states clearly that if a believer turns away, he is to be slain.

But that is all a deflection to sidestep the question regarding evidence.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Nobody in your religion has ever tried to compel me to believe anything.

I think I remember that the Quran states clearly that if a believer turns away, he is to be slain.

But that is all a deflection to sidestep the question regarding evidence.

This world is evidence of the Spiritual, this creation comes forth from the influence of the Spirit, thus every thing in Nature reflects aspects of spititual realities.

If one only looks with a material eye, always wanting a material display of proof, then they will most likely remain unable to accept the evidence of the Spirit.

I wish you always well, regards Tony
 
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