Infallibility

[Trailblazer]

But you can't see that this is exactly what others believe about the Vatican, the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, etc...all of which you denounce as the "traditions of men"? Yet your own "independent investigation of truth" is based on what a group of fallible men tell you is true.

No, it is not the same AT ALL. I first had to investigate the claim of Baha'u'llah to be a Manifestation of God and believe that before I would trust the UHJ. I do not base my beliefs upon the traditions of men. I base them upon the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

Its hard for a genuinely independent "investigator" not to detect a profound - and rather obvious - cognitive dissonance in this kind of "reasoning" - are you even allowed to question what the UHJ tells you (about what Baha'u'llah wrote) without falling into the trap of being labelled "covenant breaker"?

Why would the UHJ lie and mislead the Baha'is about what Baha'u'llah wrote? What would be their motive? The first thing law enforcement does when a murder is committed is look for a suspect and then they look at a motive.
The UHJ is an institution put in place by Baha'u'llah. I have no reason to question the UHJ unless they have done something to be suspicious of or I have a reason to believe they are dishonest. These conspiracy theories are just ridiculous. The people who promote them try to make Baha'is look brainwashed. I have been down this road on another forum. They have no evidence to back up these conspiracy theories, just pure paranoia. The people who promote these conspiracy theories are the ones who are brainwashed. They were brainwashed by those who promote the theories.

 

[siti]

@Trailblazer - I am not promoting any "conspiracy theories" or trying to make Baha'is look brainwashed - but honestly - your paranoid response does look suspiciously like that of a brainwashed cult devotee.

Anyway, my question was: how do you know that the translated book of writings ascribed to Baha'u'llah called "Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah" contains genuinely accurate translations of things that Baha'u'llah really wrote? And the answer - it seems - is that you don't know that...you believe it to be so because the UHJ tells you to believe it. Right? Yes or no will do. There is no need for you to ascribe negative motives to me - I am simply asking a simple question as an honest truth seeker - so that I can decide whether or not I should believe it too.

 

[oldbadger]

No, it is not the same AT ALL. I first had to investigate the claim of Baha'u'llah to be a Manifestation of God and believe that before I would trust the UHJ. I do not base my beliefs upon the traditions of men. I base them upon the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

That wouldn't work for me.
As a Deist I see everything as a manifestation of God.... all and everything is a part of God.
Bahauallah is just one entity in countless billions....

Why would the UHJ lie and mislead the Baha'is about what Baha'u'llah wrote? What would be their motive?

For example, would they withhold facts, writings, information which they might decide could slow the Bahai advance and objective?

The first thing law enforcement does when a murder is committed is look for a suspect and then they look at a motive.

They do? I would think that murder investigation goes into much more depth than that.

These conspiracy theories are just ridiculous. The people who promote them try to make Baha'is look brainwashed. I have been down this road on another forum. They have no evidence to back up these conspiracy theories, just pure paranoia. The people who promote these conspiracy theories are the ones who are brainwashed. They were brainwashed by those who promote the theories.

Question:- Has Iran has been subjecting Bahais to genocide in recent years? Has it killed thousands of Bahais , say, in the last ten years?

Another:- Does Bahai advise the United Nations?

Another:- Does Bahai exclude itself from all forms of World Politics?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Anyway, my question was: how do you know that the translated book of writings ascribed to Baha'u'llah called "Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah" contains genuinely accurate translations of things that Baha'u'llah really wrote? And the answer - it seems - is that you don't know that...you believe it to be so because the UHJ tells you to believe it. Right? Yes or no will do. There is no need for you to ascribe negative motives to me - I am simply asking a simple question as an honest truth seeker - so that I can decide whether or not I should believe it too.

Are you aware that on Mount Carmal stands a building called the "Center of the Study of the Texts"?

The Universal house of justice employes many learned people who's job it is to advise them on anything they request.

This would be a whole new avenue to pursue in an OP

Needless to say, the accuracy of the translations we have today is of an extremely high standard. Shoghi Effendi has said that the future will have many great scholars that will pursue this task.

I suspect when Iran opens up, that many works will become available.

There have already been revisions of past translated works and it is always not a good idea to pursue word for word understandings of translations. I see the study of the original language will be imperitive in the future.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

@Trailblazer - I am not promoting any "conspiracy theories" or trying to make Baha'is look brainwashed -....................

You are too kind. Much too kind.
Bahas do seem to be 'imprinted' with Bahai concepts that cannot be dislodged.

 

[Trailblazer]

@Trailblazer - I am not promoting any "conspiracy theories" or trying to make Baha'is look brainwashed - but honestly - your paranoid response does look suspiciously like that of a brainwashed cult devotee.

No, I am just tired of being called one.
I am not the one who is paranoid. That is projection on your part.

Anyway, my question was: how do you know that the translated book of writings ascribed to Baha'u'llah called "Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah" contains genuinely accurate translations of things that Baha'u'llah really wrote? And the answer - it seems - is that you don't know that...you believe it to be so because the UHJ tells you to believe it. Right? Yes or no will do. There is no need for you to ascribe negative motives to me - I am simply asking a simple question as an honest truth seeker - so that I can decide whether or not I should believe it too.

I know it is an accurate translation because the Guardian Shoghi Effendi translated it. I trust Shoghi Effendi because He was the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith. This has nothing to do with the UHJ. The UHJ does not tell me to believe anything. That is not their role.

 

[Trailblazer]

That wouldn't work for me.
As a Deist I see everything as a manifestation of God.... all and everything is a part of God.
Bahauallah is just one entity in countless billions....

I did not know deists believe that... I thought that was pantheism.

For example, would they withhold facts, writings, information which they might decide could slow the Bahai advance and objective?

No, I do not believe they would do that.

They do? I would think that murder investigation goes into much more depth than that.

But first they try to determine motive, and then they go into a more detail ed investigation.

Question:- Has Iran has been subjecting Bahais to genocide in recent years? Has it killed thousands of Bahais , say, in the last ten years?

I don't know.

Another:- Does Bahai advise the United Nations?

It might but it is a non-political member of the UN.

Another:- Does Bahai exclude itself from all forms of World Politics?

We can vote and we can have an opinion but we cannot run for a political office or demonstrate for causes. We cannot be a member of a political party.

 

[siti]

I know it is an accurate translation because the Guardian Shoghi Effendi translated it. I trust Shoghi Effendi because He was the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith.

No - Trailblazer - you believe it is an accurate translation because you believe it was translated by Shoghi Effendi who you believe was the Guardian. But apparently, when asked about it in 1951, Shoghi Effendi could not remember which tablets he got which bits from - so presumably nobody other than him could vouch for their authenticity. And since he popped his clogs in 1957, I'm guessing nobody will ever know where some of the passages in "Gleanings" really came from.

"Regarding your questions concerning the Gleanings:...

...The Guardian does not remember...He gathered the quotations for the Gleanings from innumerable individual tablets and writings, and did not keep a record of all of them; and has not at present time to go back over this material and find out."​

Untitled

Call me "paranoid" if you want, but I can hardly imagine anything more flimsy than that as evidence in an "independent investigation of truth".

 

[Trailblazer]

No - Trailblazer - you believe it is an accurate translation because you believe it was translated by Shoghi Effendi who you believe was the Guardian. But apparently, when asked about it in 1951, Shoghi Effendi could not remember which tablets he got which bits from - so presumably nobody other than him could vouch for their authenticity.

So what? They were still Tablets of Baha'u'llah

Call me "paranoid" if you want, but I can hardly imagine anything more flimsy than that as evidence in an "independent investigation of truth".

That is totally unrelated to independent investigation of truth.

 

[siti]

So what? They were still Tablets of Baha'u'llah

How do you know?

That is totally unrelated to independent investigation of truth.

What? Your entire conception of "truth" depends on the writings of Baha'u'llah that you can neither read for yourself nor, in some significant part at least - verify the source and validity of translations of - even by the admission of the "Guardian" who did the translating - and you say these facts are unrelated to the independent investigation of truth? Curiouser and curiouser cried Alice (she was so much surprised, that for the moment she quite forgot how to speak good English...let alone the fact that she had absolutely no clue how to read Persian or Arabic and wouldn't have known the chap who reportedly translated the tablets from Adam) - apologies to Lewis Carroll.

 

[oldbadger]

I did not know deists believe that... I thought that was pantheism.

Theism is all about an aware or interested God.
Deism is about an unaware or uninterested God.

But first they try to determine motive, and then they go into a more detail ed investigation.

Oh? They do? I thought that they commenced at the murder scene? There doesn't even have to be a motive for some murders, you know.

It might but it is a non-political member of the UN.

Bahai is invited to sit with other invited organisations on only one section of the UN, which I think is 'Human Rights', which is ironic since Human Rights extend beyond Bahai's opinions about these.

And you mentioned that you don't know whether Bahais have been subjected to genocide in Iran over the last decade...... since this kind of claim made by Bahais is fairly frequent you might like to investigate about that?

We can vote and we can have an opinion but we cannot run for a political office or demonstrate for causes. We cannot be a member of a political party.

You are a member of a Political Party, surely? You seek the introduction of a Bahai Worl;d Order with Bahai civil and criminal Laws, Bahai punishments, Bahai police force, and all manner of political beliefs. It looks to me as if one unusual political position is that Bahai National Houses of Justice would not have to support pension plans for the elderly, and/or that they could uphold Capital Punishment...... it goes on...... which part of all this don't you think is political?

 

[Trailblazer]

How do you know?

I know because I was guided to the Truth.

What? Your entire conception of "truth" depends on the writings of Baha'u'llah that you can neither read for yourself nor, in some significant part at least - verify the source and validity of translations of - even by the admission of the "Guardian" who did the translating - and you say these facts are unrelated to the independent investigation of truth? Curiouser and curiouser cried Alice (she was so much surprised, that for the moment she quite forgot how to speak good English...let alone the fact that she had absolutely no clue how to read Persian or Arabic and wouldn't have known the chap who reportedly translated the tablets from Adam) - apologies to Lewis Carroll.

And so, the same can be said for any religious person who cannot read the original language of their scriptures so reads English translations.... Why single out the Baha'is?
That is independent investigation of truth... in English.

 

[siti]

Why single out the Baha'is?

I'm not - but you are - you repeatedly make the claim that your faith is based on the uncorrupted original writings of your founder whereas the other scripture-based religions are not able to do that - but the truth is you have no more idea what Baha'u'llah really said and wrote than Muslims do about Muhammad or Christians about Jesus.

So it is, as you said earlier, a matter of faith...

At some point we have to rely on our faith in the Baha'i institutions

...faith in fallible (more often than not male) human beings and really no different in principle than Catholics trusting the word of the Vatican, JWs trusting the word of their Governing Body, Muslims trusting the word of their imams and Mormons trusting the word of "the Prophet". Is it?

 

[Milton Platt]

What I meant by proof is that we have proven it to ourselves.
I have a high bar and it has been met.

I will have to disagree. Your bar is much lower than mine.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are a member of a Political Party, surely? You seek the introduction of a Bahai Worl;d Order with Bahai civil and criminal Laws, Bahai punishments, Bahai police force, and all manner of political beliefs. It looks to me as if one unusual political position is that Bahai National Houses of Justice would not have to support pension plans for the elderly, and/or that they could uphold Capital Punishment...... it goes on...... which part of all this don't you think is political?

No, I am not a member of a political party. I am not much interested in the future Baha’i World Order. It is all I can do to get through each day. I do not even think of my future, let alone the distant future of the Baha’i Faith. Nobody really knows exactly how it will unfold, so why conjecture about it? There is plenty of work the Baha'is have to do before that ever happens.

 

[Trailblazer]

I will have to disagree. Your bar is much lower than mine.

Your bar is not higher, it is just different from my bar.

 

[oldbadger]

No, I am not a member of a political party. I am not much interested in the future Baha’i World Order. It is all I can do to get through each day. I do not even think of my future, let alone the distant future of the Baha’i Faith. Nobody really knows exactly how it will unfold, so why conjecture about it? There is plenty of work the Baha'is have to do before that ever happens.

On the side of this thread, I'm sad to read the above sentence. If only our days could all be so good that we're jumping for joy, but so few of my friends are really happy, despite how secure, safe or comfortable they might be.

Contentment, that intangible willowthewisp...... for so many.

 

[Milton Platt]

Your bar is not higher, it is just different from my bar.

I require more and better evidence for an extraordinary claim, that is the difference.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I require more and better evidence for an extraordinary claim, that is the difference.

What better evidence of the claim than the person that gives it is the first to live to the standard of that Message and that at every moment they would give their life to prove the Truth of it?

If nothing else, it is Trustworthiness and Truthfulness in its pure form. A bar none of us could raise as high.

It has been asked of us to examine the claim and decide was it worthy of bondage and banishment? If it was not, it was asked of us to judge between them that persecute and the Message.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

You are too kind. Much too kind.
Bahas do seem to be 'imprinted' with Bahai concepts that cannot be dislodged.

Isn't that the scary thing of all religious groups? They talk all sweet and nice and only about a few that won't scare you off... and then, once they got you in, they get into the "deep" stuff. And that does happen, as I'm sure you know a lot with Baha'is, because they have their nice little, cozy fireside chats. They give you those things like all religions are one, God is one, there is only one race the human race and it all sounds fantastic, but who knows what lurks in the untranslated texts. And, if a translation can't be as accurate as the original language, then what?

That means different people are going to have different interpretations, and then split off into different sects? The Baha'is always say; "No, it will never happen". But then some of us point out how it's already happened and then they say; "But those people are covenant breakers and don't have much of a following." But that's still a sect isn't it? I don't know.

I agree with you on all the rules and enforcing of rules that could happen if Baha'is become the majority. And to that they say that they won't impose their laws on the world. So what's that all about? They're going to be in the majority and allow the minority, that aren't Baha'is, to have a second set of laws? And, since they are supposed to obey the government, the Bahai's would be obligated to follow those laws also?

I guess I should mention "infallibility" to stay on topic. When has any religion ever been infallible? Yet, so many make that claim?