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Featured Infallibility

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Vinayaka, Aug 19, 2018.

  1. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    So when did this idea that a scripture or a prophet or a messenger or a pope is absolutely perfect in every way come into practice? Has it been there since early times, or is it more recent? What purpose does it serve?

    What or who do you consider infallible, if anything?

    As an eastern thinker and logical person, I don't get infallibility. To be clear, I understand what it means, I just don't get how anyone else could believe in it, yet I know some do. I just shake my head and go 'really?'

    Here's an example. "I'm infallible. I said I was infallible, and since I'm infallible, it is only logical to conclude I'm infallible. I mean, how could an infallible person claiming to be infallible possibly be wrong?"

    Does this sound logical to you?
     
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  2. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Christian fundamentalists have it that the bible
    is infallible, and that god guides their intrrpretation-
    effectively making them infalluble.
     
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  3. WalterTrull

    WalterTrull Godfella

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    Yeah. How can there be evil? How can things happen that I don't want to happen? The only infallible does lots of things I don't like, at least at the moment. I'm guessing all things are appropriate. Doesn't make me a happy camper lots of times. Interpreters are almost always fallible. Guess I have to include me.
     
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  4. Marcion

    Marcion gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma

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    Do you think Lord Shiva led exactly the life He planned to live, or do you think He may have done some things better?
     
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  5. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    For me, Siva wasn't a person, or an anthropomorphic God, so the question isn't applicable. For me, the Lingam is the closest I can get to what Siva is.

    But as for perfection, I do believe the world is in a perfect state of evolution. Maya is there, but at the core of everything, Brahman, the unmanifest, is perfect. But that's far different than infallibility from the OP.
     
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  6. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Yes, I know, and I find it odd. But it's outside my paradigm.
     
  7. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    The farthest I can advance while attempting to make sense of the idea of infallibility is that it can be appealling for a certain mndset. It sort of promises a simpler life than one could otherwise expect.
     
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  8. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    Question cannot be answered in retrospect.

    One interpretation describes infallibility as relative over time based on the limits of knowledge and the worldview at the time.
     
  9. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    It's to justify the actions of the prophet or incarnation. If the incarnation or prophet was an every day Joe Smo just like the believer, they dont see the divinity because they, themselves, see themselves as imperfect.

    Since they see themselves as imperfect, it doesn't make sense to worship something like them. So the idea is to create perfection from the idea of what the believer what's that prophet to be (making reality of whats written), using what's written to confirm their reality, and therefore, whatever worship they have is not only for the divinity of the prophet but confirmed by the words their prophet said.

    It's a circle of sorts.

    You are imperfect
    You believe the prophet is not like you; he is perfect
    You follow the prophet to be like him in perfection
    Who, in turn, redirects you to confirm how imperfect you are to continue to follow him.

    It's based on imperfection of the believer. That's why gods are Higher Than, Greather Than, More complex than the human mind, and so forth. They need perfection to be motivates to be within perfection itself. Perfection meaning god.
     
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  10. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    That's a great question. Not sure if there is any one simple answer, but I was just discussing this with someone yesterday and here are a few of the thoughts we shared. I believe this relates to what is recognized as within the cognitive behavioral sciences as the "strict parent vs nurturant parent" upbringing. In this article discussing the basis behind why a Donald Trump was nominated as the Republican nominee (old article), he goes in some things I think relates to your question. Understanding Trump

    "The conservative and progressive worldviews dividing our country can most readily be understood in terms of moral worldviews that are encapsulated in two very different common forms of family life: The Nurturant Parent family (progressive) and the Strict Father family (conservative).

    What do social issues and the politics have to do with the family? We are first governed in our families, and so we grow up understanding governing institutions in terms of the governing systems of families.

    In the strict father family, father knows best. He knows right from wrong and has the ultimate authority to make sure his children and his spouse do what he says, which is taken to be what is right. Many conservative spouses accept this worldview, uphold the father’s authority, and are strict in those realms of family life that they are in charge of. When his children disobey, it is his moral duty to punish them painfully enough so that, to avoid punishment, they will obey him (do what is right) and not just do what feels good."
    He then goes on to talk about the differences in how conservatives tend to see things in terms of direct causation versus systemic causation:

    "Direct causation is dealing with a problem via direct action. Systemic causation recognizes that many problems arise from the system they are in and must be dealt with via systemic causation. Systemic causation has four versions: A chain of direct causes. Interacting direct causes (or chains of direct causes). Feedback loops. And probabilistic causes. Systemic causation in global warming explains why global warming over the Pacific can produce huge snowstorms in Washington DC: masses of highly energized water molecules evaporate over the Pacific, blow to the Northeast and over the North Pole and come down in winter over the East coast and parts of the Midwest as masses of snow. Systemic causation has chains of direct causes, interacting causes, feedback loops, and probabilistic causes — often combined.

    Direct causation is easy to understand, and appears to be represented in the grammars of all languages around the world. Systemic causation is more complex and is not represented in the grammar of any language. It just has to be learned.

    Empirical research has shown that conservatives tend to reason with direct causation and that progressives have a much easier time reasoning with systemic causation. The reason is thought to be that, in the strict father model, the father expects the child or spouse to respond directly to an order and that refusal should be punished as swiftly and directly as possible."​

    So we see in this reasons behind why someone is more attracted to thinking that supports an external authority. You must follow the rules, they need to be clear, they will be enforced, you must get it right! It really seems a case of how we may have been raised. In the Nurturant Parent family, there is a openness to finding answers from an array of available option encouraging us to explore possibilities.

    An external authority, who you can then defend as being "infallible", takes the responsibility off yourself to figure it out. "They tell me what to do. I do it. I'm good." Or in a saying I've heard from many Biblical Infallibility apologists, "God said it. I believe it. That settles it for me!". It's the same thing. You're OK if you just obey what you believe to be the truth. It does not require you to find answers from within yourself. It is not messy. It's not full of "what if I get it wrong" questions and concerns, etc. It's easy and safe.
     
    #10 Windwalker, Aug 19, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
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  11. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Certainly sounds a heck of a lot easier than what you or I or many others have to do to get to a decision. Too bad I can't choose to believe the idea.
     
    #11 Vinayaka, Aug 19, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
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  12. `mud

    `mud Just old
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    Infallibility in a prophet ? Why are prophets assumed to perfect ?
    Does everthing that a prophet deems really happen, even to be close to accurate ?
    I don't see any comparison to prophets as to infallibiity. They can only predict guesses afterall.
    And the bible is not infallible, not even close...we're still waiting for the 2nd riseing aren't we ?
    Not to mention the uncounted dozens of other predictions and promises.
    Infallible....to be perfect....like an imagined `god`...that kills firstborn...and kills everyone in floods.
    We could go on and on couldn't we ?
    Nothing is infallible...and I'm out of beer !
    Just musing here about impossibillities, and other nonsense !
    See you later...gotta get some more beer.
     
  13. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    The Baha'i prophet, according to Baha's is indeed infallible. Not only that but he declared it for himself. There are others as well.

    I'm with you. You have extra beer?
     
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  14. sayak83

    sayak83 Veteran Member
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    Nah. Only cats are infallible. :p
     
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  15. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Paradigm?
     
  16. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    They sure like to think they are. Thats why they get so
    mad if you trick them.
     
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  17. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    If i drank beer, I'd love to have one with you.
     
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  18. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Why do you suppose so many engineers are fundies?
     
  19. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    God's word in the original manuscripts is infallible and we have high confidence in the manuscripts we have in ensamble.

    Paul corrected Peter in Galatians. There were times in church history the pope accepted correction, one case being excommunicating a country because they celebrated Easter on a different week... a Bishop told him that should not be cause for such as action particularly Easter and he accepted correction

    Protestants have never agreed that church councils and synods are inflalible rather a good check and balance usually... Presbyterian and Reformed Baptists tend to favor decisions by a pulrailty of elders or people and feel its a good way to decide things but not asserting infallibility
     
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  20. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Even IF it were the "word of god", the way each reader
    fancies himself gifted by god to (infallibly) interpret differently
    than everyone else makes the "infallible" moot.
     
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