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Featured Indus Valley Civilization

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Curious George, Jan 7, 2017.

  1. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    Well that is a pretty matter of fact statement. But it seems to betray an emotional frustration in the tone. I am not privy to the politics, nor do I wish I were. I am talking about theory alone. I have discussed even on rf this before and at times the discussion was met with adamant assertions that no people, hell, even no person, ever migrated into India. And to me that conception doesn't jive with how civilizations work. Similarly, the idea that indo european language found its way into India on horseback after the IVC existed, also doesn't jive with how civilizations work. Now, I am open to the possibility that I am missing something, don't know something, don't understand something or need to research the topic more because of some combination of all three. But, it doesn't change the simple fact that the models as presented do not make sense to me.
     
  2. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Well, you have said it yourself. These are chauvinist, anti-science people harking back to puranas, with vimanas and atom bombs, as history books. They don't do any credit to Hinduism .. er.. their 'Sanatan Dharma'. There were invaders to India, but Aryan did not come to India as invaders. They were neighbors in Afghanistan and Bactria, known to the indigenous people, like the Mexicans in the US, they just walked in. I can't confidently say before IVC or after IVC or even during IVC. IVC had prosperity, probably, that is why they came in. Chariots and horses were not of much use in India. They had to leave them in Central Asia. What were important in India were cows and bulls (not to forget the water buffalo - Mahisha). They still are. I do not know where do you get stuck.
     
    #242 Aupmanyav, Feb 16, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
  3. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    IE Cultures Map (Majorly it was Slavik/Russian, emanating from a refuge during ice-age. I own all the mistakes which may be there)
    IE Cultures Map.jpg
     
    #243 Aupmanyav, Feb 17, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  4. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Movement of Aryan people - Seraglazove on the Caspian Sea is the oldest Found (I own all the mistakes which may be there)
    Aryan mmovement.jpg
     
    #244 Aupmanyav, Feb 17, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  5. Spirit_Warrior

    Spirit_Warrior Active Member

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    Accusing OIT theorists of being Nazi Hindus, would be like OIT theorists accusing AMT theorists of being all white nationalists. Nothing productive or constructive will come out of that. I think we should not let this thread go that way and show greater maturity(ironically I am among the younger ones here)

    OIT is the default null hypothesis held by Indians, that is for approx 10,000 years history we Indians have recorded this as history. We also have record of how we conquered and colonised various Mleccha kingdoms.

    Therefore, rather than us trying to prove AMT wrong, it is AMT that should be trying to prove OIT wrong. If suppose Indians turned up at the doors of Britain in the 19th century and then told Britain their entire recorded history is false, that Richard the first was not 1159, but 1800, and the British had been deceptive and lied about the history --- then it would be the Indians to carry the burden of proof to prove wrong all the recorded history of Britain and the archaeological evidence. Similarly, AMT theorists who seek to falsify 10,000 years of our recorded history and all the archaeological evidence which proves this, carry the burden of proof.

    The constructive discussion would be to first prove this arbitrary date of 1500BCE as arrival of Indo-Aryans. As we have seen Copernicus's best evidence of horses and spoked wheels has been comfortably refuted.

    Stick to discussing evidence, the rest is rhetoric.
     
    #245 Spirit_Warrior, Feb 17, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  6. Kirran

    Kirran
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    Nazis is a bit much really, isn't it?

    Although complaining about who is advocating X or Y idea is ultimately a very poor way of refuting it. Refute the idea, not the context in which it is promoted.
     
  7. Copernicus

    Copernicus Godless Hierophant

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    I have already noted that these few ambiguous examples are not taken as serious evidence of a culture immersed in horses and spoke-wheeled chariots. The animal figurines are heavily eroded, and the alleged spoke design could just be artistic. By way of contrast, there were elaborate burials with war chariots and horses in the Andronovo region. It is known that the IVC traded with BMAC. As I pointed out earlier, archaeological evidence pretty much proves that the horse-drawn spoke-wheeled chariot was invented in the Andronovo horizon and spread from there to other areas of the world. Here is a map from the Wikipedia article I linked to above that shows the distribution pattern with relative dates:

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Spirit_Warrior

    Spirit_Warrior Active Member

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    Ah, as I expected, straight denial. Mate your original claim was that there was no horse or spoked wheels in the IVC, and now you have shifted the goal post to there is not as much as we find the BMAC. Whoever made the claim that Indian culture was steeped in horses, perhaps the IVC did trade horses with BMAC or whoever, but the point is your argument was to support of the 1500BCE date that horses etc were not found in IVC before, hence this is proof that the horses were brought by the Indo-Aryans. Now, I have shown you, if you actually read the article that horse fossils have been found at several IVC sites, as well as the figurines of horses. The old horse argument is now a dead horse.

    What else you got to prove Aryans arrived in India in 1500BCE?
     
  9. Spirit_Warrior

    Spirit_Warrior Active Member

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    Note everybody, Copernicus still has not answered my questions I have asked three times directly to him

    1. Why does the Rig Veda not mention iron, even though AMT says it occurs in the iron age of India?
    2. Why does the Rig Veda mention the Saraswati river is thriving and all its settlements are alongside it, and should it spurn them, they will migrate to distant lands. (3/4ths of the IVC sites are alongside the banks of the Saraswati) when we know now it was long dead and dried up in 1900BCE and thriving sometime in 4000BCE.

    Allow me to add

    3. Why have Indians recorded naked eye observations of the skies in 3102BCE and which is mentioned in the Mahabharata as the start of the Kaliyuga?
     
  10. Kirran

    Kirran
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    While personally I think domesticated horse usage in large numbers didn't reach into South Asia until the spread of Indo-European culture into it, were one operating from an OIT perspective it isn't implausible that the domestic horse could have reached India from its Central Asian homeland anyway. So that's, if not something in support of OIT, certainly not something which goes against it.
     
  11. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    Umm, actually a historian is supposed to be start from skepticism for these things, just like science. All theories are wrong until verifiable evidence suggests otherwise.
     
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  12. Copernicus

    Copernicus Godless Hierophant

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    Please stop paraphrasing what I said inaccurately. The IVC traded with many surrounding lands, including the BMAC. The argument is that the PIE vocabulary attests horse domestication, and there is scant evidence of horse domestication in the IVC. Your handful of ambiguous artifacts are nothing like what we would expect if the IVC were ancestral to the Aryan civilization. Andronovo nomads mingled with the BMAC and adopted their religious and cultural practices, according to what I've read. The spread of horse-drawn war chariots with spoked wheels is archaeological evidence that supports the AMT. Your handful of ambiguous figurines may or may not represent horses. The IVC certainly did have bullock-drawn carts, but one would expect far more such artifacts if the IVC actually had such war chariots and lots of horses. The fact that the evidence is so scant actually contradicts what we would expect, but it is something that OIT enthusiasts are desperate to use as counterevidence.

    As for other evidence, archaeologists cite matters such as artifacts from funeral practices. The BMAC and Andronovo practices and religious figures were very similar to those of the Aryans, not the IVC. In the passage I quoted above, which you did not attempt to refute, it was noted that their gods were depicted as riding in chariots with spoked wheels, just as Hindu gods were. The similarities are too numerous for open-minded scholars to ignore.

    Textual references are notoriously unreliable as historical evidence, but lack of reference to iron in the Rig Veda does not mean much. This is not impressive evidence, given the overwhelming evidence from language and archaeology for AMT.
     
  13. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    You have noticed how I've stayed out of it this time, other than rewarding those whom I agree with? I thought you were going to stay out of it too. Whatsamatter, no will?
     
  14. Copernicus

    Copernicus Godless Hierophant

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    It isn't just horses and chariots, but also culture--e.g. burial rituals and depictions of gods in war chariots. If the PIE homeland had spread from India, then one would have expected reconstructed vocabulary in European daughter languages with references to flora and fauna of the Indian subcontinent rather than the Russian steppes. It isn't about what is possible, but what is plausible.
     
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  15. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    To my understanding no greater amount of horses and chariots are found in archeaological digs after the 1500bce period. Of there was a significant increase in these items then we would expect to see a significant increase in the artifacts found.

    Why isn't it plausible that a language left india/Pakistan region and then split thereafter. This language could yield just as many similarities and we needn't expect to find words with Indian flora and fauna in it because the language that emerged would have done so when it was no longer around this flora and fauna.

    Ultimately it is a discussion on plausibility. It seems to me the most likely source for the spread of language the preceded the indo european language would be a the larger source rather than a smaller one.
     
  16. Copernicus

    Copernicus Godless Hierophant

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    I'll explain this again. We find a common vocabulary for flora, fauna, human activities, and culture that matches the Ukrainian steppes and the Kurgan culture, but we fail to find a similar layer of vocabulary in all the daughter languages for India. The archaeological evidence shows older evidence of Indo-Aryan culture in the Andronovo horizon and Bactria-Margiana Complex. So the evidence points in that direction for a homeland, not northern India. Gods in war chariots with spoked wheels. Earlier in BMC, not India.
     
  17. Spirit_Warrior

    Spirit_Warrior Active Member

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    Sayak you misunderstand the historical method. The historical method is not the same as the scientific method, because it depends less on empiricism and more on testimony and interpretation. A lot of history depends on testimony, because there are things you can know only through testimony e.g. An event that took place, such as a battle, you would only know from the reports of people e.g. The Greco-Persian wars, because they lack significantly in empirical evidence, we only know from Herodotus's account and based on Herodotus's information we can date the event. Similarly, the history we know of India we know through testimony, and it is testimony coming from multiple sources e.g. The historicity of Krishna, Rama, Mahabharata etc is not doubted even in the Jain and Buddhist puranas and chronicles, though they offer counter-perspectives on them, they do not doubt that they are real historical people. In much the same in Britain they do not doubt the historicity of King Richard.

    AMT falsifies 10,000 years of Indian history, that is the records kept by the Indian people which speaks of continuous urban civilisation going back 10,000 years or more. The fact is we do have empirical evidence to back it up as well. So it is not just history based on testimony, but it is empirically validated too.
     
  18. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    Understandable, but the archeology in India is far from complete. And the fact remains that some evidence of domestic horses have been found and some evidence of chariots jave been found. While we can argue over what these chariots looked like or whether they were closer to carts, otherwise is clear that the IVC culture had both the wheel and some form of domesticated animal drawn cart. I have not read the book the wheel the horse and language yet, but it should be digested in a week or so. As of now I am reading linguistic textbooks trying to catch up
    I looked over lists of cognates and can only find some cognates that would indicate an exclusion of India. Most are completely compatible. Now if language had came first from India then we would expect to see another language emerge. Similarly, we would not expect ivc language to stay stagnant. Stems can be lost and we are talking about a period of 4000-8000 years.

    I am trying to look at this from the point of what we know and make sense of it. I am sorry if you feel like you are having to repeat yourself. None of the Human behavior, flora and fauna, tools, or food is inconsistent with india if we allow for the likelihood another language emerged after leaving India.

    But pre-Harappan civilization existed across India to the himalayas. This culture could produce all of the words that are seen later in indo european that also appear in just the indic branch. That more words were added to the indo-European branch after would be expected if another language emerged.

    What we must see though is that the languages were one by the time certain tools were developed if thered is a shared cognate from the most distant language groups (unless we are wrong about the date the item was invented) so we have yoke, wheel, chariot, and ship with which to start our work. These seem like words from a trading culture that is hip to agriculture as well. Ivc fits the bill but so do many other cultures. But if the time is right the split would have occurred at its earliest around the transition from neolithic. Now explain why we can't have a language split around 4500, and end up with a group of IVC people in the Kurgan area 500 years later when we already know that IVC traveled far for trade.
     
  19. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    There is not evidence of hinduism as it is practiced today in IVC culture. Could there have been precursors? Yes. But it is not the same. You have to bend the facts mightily to turn up Hindu deities.
     
  20. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    But the burials in Harappan civilization range from pits to cremation which spans Kurgans to the Celts in similarity. As far as gods let us look at a Celt God Cernunnos and one from the IVC

    [​IMG]
    Cernunnos - Wikipedia

    [​IMG]

    https://i2.wp.com/www.druidry.org/s...public/article-images/PasupatiSeal.jpg?zoom=2
     
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