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INDISPUTABLE Rational Proof That God Exists (Or Existed)

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by kevino434, Dec 30, 2012.

  1. kevino434

    kevino434 New Member

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    Whether God is an all-knowing being, or a thoughtless being non-existent anymore, something had to start the first thing, the first science, and science cannot and will not ever explain the start of science, just as something cannot create itself. Before anything, there was nothing. Something transcendent, existent before anything, had to create the first something. That, we call God.
     
  2. F0uad

    F0uad Well-Known Member

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    Lol welcome to the forum.
     
  3. kevino434

    kevino434 New Member

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    Not to be mean to athiests but every time i see an athiest rip on a religious person i just wanna slap them with this statement.
     
  4. Falvlun

    Falvlun Earthbending Lemur Staff Member Premium Member

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    Yawn. First cause arguments have been around forever, and they've never been particularly convincing, let alone indisputable. For one thing, if everything needs a cause, then wouldn't God require a cause as well? And if you propose that God is an exception, that means exceptions are allowed, so why not just make things simpler and claim that the Universe is an exception to things requiring causes?

    There's also always the strange conclusion, that doesn't follow from any of the previous premises, that we should just call this first cause "God". Why? What if the first cause was just some random quantum mechanic event. Why do we call that God? Should that really be considered God?

    Oh, and P.S., humans started science. And last I checked, we ain't gods.
     
    Wannabe Yogi and FlyingTeaPot like this.
  5. F0uad

    F0uad Well-Known Member

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    Well don't you think you just did the same?
     
  6. F0uad

    F0uad Well-Known Member

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    Well one of the attributes of god is that he is un-created and the creator of all things.
    Logic does say that there has to be something that is eternal because something had to came to existence.
    It comes to the basic that nothing cant create something and even random quantum mechanic do not come out of nothing or exist of nothing.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
    hexler likes this.
  7. 9Westy9

    9Westy9 Sceptic Staff Member Premium Member

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    Religion:
    Apathetic Agnostic
    Then where did God come from?

    This is a contradiction. First you say there was nothing before anything and then you say that something transcendent existed before anything
     
  8. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Ignorant Atheist Capitalist Engineer Libertarian

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    Greetings, new guy!
    Your assumptions lead you to believe in a supreme being.
    But they work only if they're true. This is not known.
     
  9. Falvlun

    Falvlun Earthbending Lemur Staff Member Premium Member

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    How do you know that an attribute of the Universe is that it is uncreated? I mean, if we are just making up attributes of unknown entities, why can't I make up attributes of unknown entities as well?

    So, why couldn't the universe be eternal?

    Actually, I don't know if we know that for sure. Physics is kinda complicated and weird.
     
  10. kevino434

    kevino434 New Member

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    Yes but the first thing was caused by something. Whatever that thing is, it transcends (not in religious context) the natural laws of the universe. That thing is called God. It could be a random event, and the cause of that random event is God. Not saying God is anything more than the cause of the first thing. I'm completely fine with people believing anything they want, and i believe in science but science will never be able to prove that the universe was created through science because the first thing created will never have a creator that obeys the laws of the universe and science. (btw by science I mean the laws of the universe etc.)
     
  11. Falvlun

    Falvlun Earthbending Lemur Staff Member Premium Member

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    So what created God?

    And you are using the wrong definition of science. Science is the systematic method by which we discover information and build theories about the universe.

    Also, why do you think this is information that can never be discovered? I'm just sayin', science does have a pretty good track record at figuring out things that people didn't think could be figured out, and especially those things that people used to think that the gods must have done (usually because they couldn't think of any other explanation. hint hint)
     
  12. dyanaprajna2011

    dyanaprajna2011 Dharmapala

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    I don't see why it can't be said that it's the universe itself that has always existed, in some form or another. And quantum physics is getting us closer to explaining existence apart from the need for a god. If the original state of the universe was a vacuum, we used to know that nothing could exist in a vacuum, until it was discovered that small particles of electro-magnetic energy can, in fact, exist in a vacuum. So there we see that we are one step closer to explaining existence apart from the need to resort to the god-idea. This, and like I said earlier, the idea that the universe has always existed, albeit in different forms over time. Much simpler explanation.
     
  13. kevino434

    kevino434 New Member

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    Also, the reason "God" is "God" is because it/he doesn't have a creator. That's what makes him above all laws of the universe, thus being this transcendent being.

    I've heard so many people say "So what created god?" That's the whole point of God! He didn't have a creator and that's what makes him matter. And that's why there's so many different interpretations of God. He doesn't have a creator, so doesn't obey any natural laws, so could be anything. We just don't know and will never know. We can only rationally conclude that he exists.
     
  14. F0uad

    F0uad Well-Known Member

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    Well i don't belief that the universe is un-created i rather belief it is created, its impossible for nothing to create something, its impossible that we had a infinite history and i can go on and on..
    As for the attributes i think we should use logic and reasoning to determine what they are. For example if we are going to say that he is un-created and on the same time claiming that he is the creator of all things then there cant be more then one god.

    You cant have a infinite history ill give you a example why: If i want to buy a candy and i have to ask my father for permission and he has to ask hes father and he needs to ask hes father and this goes on for a eternity then i cant ever buy the candy.

    Not really even Basic Physics agrees.
     
  15. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel Staff Member Premium Member

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    Scientific method is something Humans learned,the argument that something must have created something in the first place is a bit lame,what evidence is there that everything was created rather than just being a random event.
     
  16. Falvlun

    Falvlun Earthbending Lemur Staff Member Premium Member

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    So in other words, your logic is circular. You believe the universe must be created because you believe God must have created it therefore the universe must be created.

    First, you must show that the universe must have been created.

    But you aren't using logic. You are only using belief, as shown above. I'm saying that God isn't a necessary hypothesis. Is it possible that God created the universe? Of course. But is it necessary that a God did this? That has not yet been proven.

    Just because you can't imagine an eternal history doesn't make one impossible. I mean, you can imagine an eternal God, no? Does that mean that it was impossible for God to create the universe since he always existed? If your answer is no, then there's no reason an eternal universe is any less plausible.

    Show me then. But from everything I've heard, physics rarely agrees with itself and there's much that is not understood and the things that we think we know are incredibly strange.
     
  17. kevino434

    kevino434 New Member

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    As a metaphor, to knock down a line of dominos, something must hit the first domino. It won't just fall by itself. And the thing that knocks down that first domino cannot be a domino, because if it was why wouldn't all the dominos be able to fall by themself? (The dominos represent everything in the universe that obeys the laws of the universe. The thing that knocks the first domino down, can be anything with any unknown attributes, except it must have the attribute of not obeying the laws of the universe.)
     
  18. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Ignorant Atheist Capitalist Engineer Libertarian

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    What domino set your supreme being in motion?
     
  19. Falvlun

    Falvlun Earthbending Lemur Staff Member Premium Member

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    Ah, now you are adding more descriptions to God. Before, he was just a first cause. Now he's above all the laws of the universe, and he's transcendent! (What the heck does transcendent even mean? It just sounds like a fancy word people like to attach to God. And no, just because something causes something to occur, it doesn't follow that it will therefore not be subject to it. If I create mech-Godzilla, that's not gonna save me from the possibility of being squashed by the giant robot.)

    So, explain again why the universe couldn't have just created itself? I mean, if "god" could be anything and can apparently exist without a cause, then why couldn't the universe do that too?
     
  20. kevino434

    kevino434 New Member

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    I believe in evolution etc all of that, yes science repeatedly proves religion wrong but I'm not saying religions are right by any means. I believe science will eventually prove everything in the universe, except for the creation of it. Science will never be able to prove that, so that's why i rationally conclude that something unscientific started or created the universe.
     
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