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Incest among other kinds of sex.

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by Smart_Guy, Feb 23, 2016.

?
  1. Yes, it is.

    3 vote(s)
    13.0%
  2. No, it is not.

    20 vote(s)
    87.0%
  1. Smart_Guy

    Smart_Guy ...
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    What do you think of incest; as in having sex with close relatives like parents and siblings? (rape is not included with this package)

    For those saying generally sex is always okay as long as there is consent, do you include incest in it too? Would you (emphasis on you) practice it? Do you think it is okay in itself as a practice (I'm asking about your opinion in the practice itself)? If you say it is not okay as a practice in itself, while you believe generally sex is okay as long as consent is there, wouldn't you think there is a conflict?

    For those against it, why are you? Is it a logic you believe in, religious teachings, etc.?

    Finally, in your definition of incest, do you include cousins or just direct close relatives?

    Post-finally, I voted "no, it is not".
     
    #1 Smart_Guy, Feb 23, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2016
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  2. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    Put simply, I believe we have the right to regulate sexual activities when a compelling government interest is involved and that interest is served by narrowly tailored regulations. In the case of incest, we must worry about the potential offspring, we must also worry about the coercion and power play that a familiar relationship provides, finally we must question whether there is a breach of familiar duty in cases where injury arise. While your hypothetical excludes offspring from the equation, I don't think this is pragmatic in practice because permitting such behavior would likely lead to some increase in offspring from such relationships. However, there are instances where no children are possible I.e. homosexual relationships between family members, so with that in mind I would still point out that we have the other issues to address and the additional equal protection problem of permitting sexual relationships for one group but not another.

    Either way, it is a mess. The resulting question is whether disallowing such relationships creates a benefit to society that is greater than the detriment of denying an individual the right to engage in incestuous behavior. I would say yes. Disallowing incest does very little to an individual, while safeguarding against potentially coercive relationships that rely on familiar relationships to coerce sexual favors. Thus, this should be true even for close family relationships that are not born of blood relationships, I.e. adoption.

    Simply put, we ought to weigh the benefits and detriments to society and the benefits and detriments to the individuals when deciding whether something is "moral." It may not be the case that the greatest good for the most people win out, but in this specific case, it is--because nothing great is being denied to the individuals.
     
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  3. Smart_Guy

    Smart_Guy ...
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    Hey CG, thanks for the detailed post :)

    The OP is having in mind all kinds of possibilities it could result in, including the offspring and their affairs.

    Does something imply in the OP that it excludes offspring? I'd like to fix that.
     
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  4. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    No, that was probably an assumption on my part based on the title "other kinds of sex" perhaps a bias. Usually, the problem of offspring is the most apparent against incest and that alone should deter people. So, amidst "other types" of sex, I was assuming you were avoiding that to make the argument more interesting. But seeing as though you are not, that is certainly a major problem.
     
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  5. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    No.

    It should only be allowed in very rare, marginal cases. For example, there was some news that a couple had been married for some time already and did not know they were siblings. They had been separated at a very early age and had no way of knowing it. I don't think they should be allowed kids though except through adoption, but they had established their life based on their love relationship. I don't think that should be broken.

    Family bonds are higher ordering than sex.

    The cultural taboo, family dynamics of trust. Genetics is another reason, but only for having babies.

    Close relatives. Though I don't think cousin is a good idea either, I accept that it's normal in many countries and considered even traditional.
     
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  6. Smart_Guy

    Smart_Guy ...
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    Well, contrary to what many believe that different kinds of restrictions for sex are just thrown blindly or to control over people's choices, the case is as you say, mainly concerns the offspring and their rights and life matters. For that, I see it is important to keep the offspring matter within the discussion.
     
  7. Smart_Guy

    Smart_Guy ...
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    Thank you for the comprehensive post, Jumi :)

    Could that mean that consent is not the only thing that governs having sex? This sounds like one example that says so (i.e. family bonds) .
     
    #7 Smart_Guy, Feb 23, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2016
  8. Thana

    Thana Lady

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    I don't approve of it, and I think it's a terrible idea because of the problems incest causes in their offspring but I don't feel like I have a right to dictate what consenting adults should do with their bodies and their lives. Morally, it's icky, but whatever floats your boat.

    And no, I personally wouldn't practice it. Although I'll admit when I was a kid I did have a major crush on my cousin.
     
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  9. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    I'm fairly sure the word "incest" itself is rarely used without a measure of disapproval. But leaving that aside, I see two conceivable reasons to disapprove of it.

    1. Genetic risks. It is now well-understood that having people with too close a blood relation have offspring among themselves greatly raises the odds of expression of recessive genes, many of which are harmful.

    2. Emotional abuse. It is often perceived as not very healthy to have sexual intimacy with the same people who one is stuck with due to blood relations. It may lead to odd emotional conflicts that, I assume, are simply not well understood (not a lot of research possible so far) and therefore hard to prevent or deal with.

    I could probably disregard the first reason if I knew that the couple is sterile due to age or other reasons.

    I don't think I can disregard the second very easily, though. I am generally very opposed to isolationist tendencies, from nationalism all the way down to failing to learn a second language. Having blood relations turn to each other for physical intimacy is simply not something I can see without some worry.

    That said, every situation is different from the next one, and we are talking about some of the most personal of situations here. Judging on a case-by-case basis is very much necessary. So I am sorry, but I won't vote.
     
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  10. Mycroft

    Mycroft Ministry of Serendipity

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    Incest is a bit of a double-edged sword, as a subject. It's one of those few pieces of legislation that has penetrated social consciousness. Yet while the reasons remain valid, they are not extraordinary or exclusive to incestuous relations.

    1) Child Abuse: This happens as often non-incestuously as it does incestuously. I posit that if someone were to compare the two, there'd be no great disparity.

    2) Emotional Abuse: This happens in any kind of relationship all the time. Again I don't think it's particularly exclusive to incest. Perhaps the kind of emotional abuse.

    3) Offspring: Incestuous couples are, of course, capable of producing healthy offspring even if they have a recessive gene. The problem is that the chances of producing unhealthy offspring with a recessive gene are much higher (with no recessive genes, the chances are the same as anyone else's). But this is largely an issue of education: Many incestuous couples don't have babies. But the ones that do are, largely, unaware of the risks involved because education on the subject of incestuous birthing is simply not widely discussed.

    Philosophically speaking there's no real reason that incest between two consenting adults should be illegal. Indeed, in quite a few countries (and some states in America) it either isn't, is decriminalised, or simply not specifically legislated upon at all. The safety issues of it are merely one of education, and the abusive issues will happen anyway whether legal or illegal.

    One thing I do thing is that if incest were legal, people who are abused by their relatives might come forward more easily (reducing the problem greatly). I think one of the problems with it being illegal is that people who are abused incestuously are too ashamed to speak out against their abusers.
     
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  11. Pudding

    Pudding Well-Known Member

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    If the activity is consenting by both party, base on the relationship of love, in an honest monogamous relationship, and have used contraception, then that is okay.

    There is possibilities that i may pratice it if the consenting relationship base on love occur upon me.
    But so far i haven't meet such situation.

    Offspring of biologically related parents are subject to the possible impact of inbreeding. Such offspring have a higher possibility (see Coefficient of relationship) of congenital birth defects because it increases the proportion of zygotes that are homozygous for deleterious recessive alleles that produce such disorders (see Inbreeding depression).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incest#Inbreeding


    So i think contraception is considering to be important in the activity.
    If contraception have been used, the pratice or activity should be okay.

    Both.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/incest
    Incest
    1. sexual intercourse between closely related persons.


    That is a definition i can accept.


    The poll question: Is incest as a practice acceptable for you?
    That depends on the situation about the practice.

    If the activity is consenting by both party, base on the relationship of love, in an honest monogamous relationship, and have used contraception, then that is okay.
    There is possibilities that it may acceptable for me if the consenting relationship base on love occur upon me.

    Currently the practice is not acceptable for me, because so far i haven't meet such situation.

    If other people have meet such situation in their life and they accept it, that is acceptable for me.

    My answer can be view as an elaboration of the option "No, it's not" or "Other answer"(not including in your poll).
    Elaboration is require as the option is a little simplistic and can be interpret into other different interpretation. - edit
     
    #11 Pudding, Feb 23, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2016
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  12. Mycroft

    Mycroft Ministry of Serendipity

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    Contraception should be used in any kind of sexual activity between any kind of people.

    You could say that contraception should be used on every conceivable occasion.

    :sunglasses: Awwwwwyyyeeeaaaahh.
     
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  13. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    There are other things. My views:
    - family bonds already mentioned
    - similar maturity levels, adults should only have such relations with other adults
    - if you are in a closed relationship(marriage or dating) you should honor it and not seek out outside partners.
    - no non-human animals even consenting ones.
    - forced consent is not ok(don't know if this is the right word) like marriage rape or a nurse using disabled patients due having power over them

    For having kids these should be limited:
    - high risk severe inheritable diseases until genetic cure is permitted or found
    - incest. Before direct genetic manipulation becomes available it's used in animal breeding to make genetic traits common(for example cows more milk or muscle) but such experiments on humans are even more clearly not ethical
     
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  14. Pudding

    Pudding Well-Known Member

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    I take it that you're just joking because it doesn't make sense.
     
  15. Mycroft

    Mycroft Ministry of Serendipity

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    Conceivable occasion.

    Conception....

    Oh never mind. Go and sit in the corner!
     
  16. The Emperor of Mankind

    The Emperor of Mankind Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic

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    Something only barbarians allow.


    I don't include incest. But only because there's never a need to highlight that with anybody I've talked to sex about - it's taken for granted.


    No and no. It's not okay because it can have detrimental effects on society and the human gene pool. The only problem with this position is that such arguments tend to end up sounding really eugenic-y.


    A bit of logic, a bit of scientific basis. My religious beliefs coincidentally reinforce this postion (though they didn't inform it) - classical Hellenic writers and the numerous myths show that the gods view incest as one of the most abominable acts one can engage in.

    I always did because I just assumed that was how the Mormon Church viewed things. But apparently they don't. Apparently quite a few of the families in our area who've married into one another were related via cousins beforehand. I also looked up incest on Wikipedia and here in the UK having sex with your cousin & marrying them are both entirely legal. I'd never have known that if I hadn't looked it up.


    Cool. :)

    If it's any consolation, I got it :)
     
    #16 The Emperor of Mankind, Feb 23, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2016
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  17. Mycroft

    Mycroft Ministry of Serendipity

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    But is that because you're conditioned against the idea, or because it's actually more damaging than any other kind of relation?
     
  18. The Emperor of Mankind

    The Emperor of Mankind Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic

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    I'm not really sure. Probably both. I've never felt sexually attracted to my parents and I've known it's wrong to look at them (or any family member) that way without being told it's wrong. Ever since I've known incest can produce badly messed up children, that's only reinforced my position.
     
  19. Pudding

    Pudding Well-Known Member

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    I don't get what your point is.
    Do you mean people will always find reason (every conceivable occasion) to justify their opinion?
    Therefor my opinion is irrelevant or unimportant or what?
     
  20. Mycroft

    Mycroft Ministry of Serendipity

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    Sure that's true. But like I said: the problem of offspring is one of education. And non-incestuous couples have deformed offspring all the time.

    If a person, for example, has a congenital heart defect which has a high-risk of being inherited by their offspring, should that person be prevented from having any?
     
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