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In this day and age does proselytizing still work?

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
All proselytizing tells me, is that it's something that requires convincing and persuasion and not able to sit on its own merits.
“Something that requires convincing and persuasion” does not equal “not able to sit on its own merits.”

The Bible has requirements that, in this day and age, are harder to live by, than in the past.

Take, for instance, the Bible’s stance on fornication.... it seems that very few, relative to the world’s population, restrain their sexual activity, and limit it to their marriage mate. In fact, a less percentage of people now (than, say, 60 years ago) even want to get married. As in, “get the milk for free.”

However, living by that Scriptural standard, as well as the Bible’s guidelines of ‘husbands loving their wives’ and ‘wives respecting their husbands,’ provides a solid foundation for a happy family and a safe haven for raising well-adjusted children.

It’s really the best way of living, in the long run, but unfortunately in today’s social climate, it needs “selling”, if you will.

Self-control, in almost anything, is not popular.

I must say, I’ve benefitted from it!
 

John1.12

Free gift
Let's assume that the goal of proselytizing is to gain converts. I think it's clear, because of religious growth statistics from the past, that at one time it did work. But in 2021 do you think it still does? So the 2 choices in the debate are simple : Yes it works, or No, it doesn't, and then give your reasons. Of course the third option of 'I don't know' is always available.

I have a couple of observations. At a lot of the ex-________ discussion groups, one of the most common reasons for leaving is the pressure to proselytize, or just exposure to excessive proselytizing. So there's a statistic hidden there somewhere for net loss. Proselytizing also works in some places, I would assume. So which is greater, net loss, or net gain?

The second observation is from the state of Kerala in India, where Christian proselytizing in a heavy way has been going on for about 200 years. As a result, Kerala has one of the largest Christian groups in India. There are smaller states with higher percentages, but Kerala and it's neighbour, TN lead the way in sheer numbers.
The state government now keeps track of changes. Interestingly, in 2020, the highest number of conversions was the Christian to Hindu subsect. (for the first time in history)This wasn't due to proselytising, but due to peoples own volitions, and more or less deconversion, or going back to roots.

Thoughts? (I have more as well.)
You'd have to differentiate between Joining a church and receiving Jesus .
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I just don't like people 'pushing' me. Proselytizing feels like that.
So clearly it doesn't work for you personally. What do you think for people in general?

Like used car salesmen. I had the misfortune of shopping for a new car this morning, and it's on my mind, sorry. I have to keep reminding myself I'm buying a car, not a person.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I find JW an interesting group, as it more or less stands alone as to the commitment to proselytizing is high, and a certain amount of time is compulsory, at least by what my minimal research indicated.

Just to clarify some points here Vinayaka, our proselytising work is known in all nations because it is not optional for JW’s....it is a command from our leader to take his message out to the people so that choices are offered to those to whom we preach. (Matthew 28:19-20) We believe from our Christian scriptures that this choice to listen and act, or not to do either, has to be offered to all, and that a person’s response will dictate their eternal future.

We will travel for miles to save even one person. We take our responsibility very seriously. People’s lives are at stake.

The success rate was high, but it also had the highest rate for leaving. Overall, more join that leave.
Becoming a JW takes time, effort and commitment because unlike other churches, you cannot “join” Jehovah’s Witnesses....you have to choose to become one, which takes a fair bit of Bible study and a will to dedicate oneself to God (Jehovah) through becoming a disciple of his son. Being a follower of Jesus Christ requires that we try as best we can in our circumstances to imitate him in our conduct (getting baptized) and to obey his teachings 24/7....all of them, not just the convenient stuff.

It’s not easy, so as the Bible says, it’s a ‘cramped and narrow road’ we are required to walk.....some cannot maintain the standard and either find reasons to leave, or are disfellowshipped and have an ax to grind. We do not expect the majority to accept our message because Jesus said that “few” would be found on the road to life. (Matthew 7:13-14)

The group also seemed accurate on self-reporting, as Pew Research had the numbers higher than the JW organisation itself. Failure to submit proselytising records got you off the active list. I wouldn't normally trust self reporting, as there's obvious reason for exaggeration.
We do not count our small children, ‘bums on seats’, or ‘label wearers’....our numbers include only those who are baptized, active in the preaching work, and who are regular in meeting attendance....that rules out those who claim to be JW’s from those who demonstrate that they are. But even then, it’s all about our motive in “doing the will of the Father”....which only our judge (Jesus Christ) knows. (Matthew 7:21-23) For us, people outside of our family are offered a place in it, if that is what they want to do. All are welcomed regardless of race, language, social standing or education.

We will not tolerate those who break God’s laws unrepentantly or those who want to dictate their own ideas to others. Causing division is counter to what Jesus and his apostles taught. They would be known by their unity, not their divisions. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

But I think the success is largely due to the commitment to it. Perhaps a more fair assessment would be converts per hour of proselytising, and look at how that's changed over the years, or by group.
It’s really got nothing to do with numbers because, to us, it’s about saving lives....there is no quota......but we can’t save those who don’t want to be saved. All we can do is offer them the way, and help people to learn how to qualify for everlasting life. They then have to put in the effort themselves because they want to, and for those who do, for the right reason, it’s an amazing experience to be part of a united, peace-loving, global, spiritual family.

For JW’s, all members of this family are precious and loved....even if we have never met them. Our unity is unique as has been witnessed whenever we have held our large conventions. (now on hold due to Covid)
People in accommodation and transportation services are often amazed when they see complete strangers embrace, and treat each other as close family. They are impressed by our honesty and our compliance with direction, and patience when it is needed. This is the norm for us, so along with the Bible’s teachings, and a close connection to Jehovah, that strong sense of family is what many find appealing. It is sadly lacking in what has become a cold hearted and disunited world.

I have been a part of this family now for over 50 years....and I wouldn’t be anywhere else.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
J
We will travel for miles to save even one person. We take our responsibility very seriously. People’s lives are at stake.

Becoming a JW takes time, effort and commitment because unlike other churches, you cannot “join” Jehovah’s Witnesses....you have to choose to become one, which takes a fair bit of Bible study and a will to dedicate oneself to God (Jehovah) through becoming a disciple of his son. Being a follower of Jesus Christ requires that we try as best we can in our circumstances to imitate him in our conduct (getting baptized) and to obey his teachings 24/7....all of them, not just the convenient stuff.

It’s not easy, so as the Bible says, it’s a ‘cramped and narrow road’ we are required to walk.....some cannot maintain the standard and either find reasons to leave, or are disfellowshipped and have an ax to grind. We do not expect the majority to accept our message because Jesus said that “few” would be found on the road to life. (Matthew 7:13-14)

Thank you for the detailed response. I've always admired the commitment of the JW sect. My wife has a devoted JW cousin, She rode with us to my MIL's funeral. Needless to say, we didn't discuss religion.

What is the general response to the 'fact' from above that the JW population is in decline? I assume that only makes for greater determination and diligence, but I could be wrong.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
Let's assume that the goal of proselytizing is to gain converts. I think it's clear, because of religious growth statistics from the past, that at one time it did work. But in 2021 do you think it still does? So the 2 choices in the debate are simple : Yes it works, or No, it doesn't, and then give your reasons. Of course the third option of 'I don't know' is always available.

Thoughts? (I have more as well.)

Most everyone in the first world knows about Christianity and Jesus, ad nauseum. I think that is why the monotheistic religions are focusing on third world nations now. The first world knows and doesn't care.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
What is the general response to the 'fact' from above that the JW population is in decline? I assume that only makes for greater determination and diligence, but I could be wrong.
As I said, for us its not about quantity but about quality.....God is not one bit interested in pretenders who ride the coattails of others so as to gain the reward. They will get nothing from him.

There are a couple of scriptures that I believe answers your question in a way that makes sense to us.

1 John 5:19...
"We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one."

This unseen 'ruler of the world' has an agenda concerning God's worshippers.....to divide and conquer them by testing their faith to the limit. He wants victims who will go down with him when the jig is up. Whether we become one is entirely up to us. We will believe whatever we want to believe....even if its wrong....because of this innate selfishness in us.

But Luke 22:31...says....
" Satan has demanded to have all of you to sift you as wheat."
What does sifting accomplish? It separates the grain from the chaff.....so trials of our faith do the same thing.
The wheat remains, whilst the chaff is separated out and discarded.
Satan gets the chaff....God gets the wheat. By how we live our lives, we show God which one we are.

If we understand that God is not causing this, but allowing it, in order to determine who has the qualities that he is looking for as citizens of his incoming Kingdom, it makes perfect sense IMO. This is the one form of rulership that mankind has never experienced.....the one we should have had in the beginning but were persuaded to forfeit by what appeared to be a better offer......."we can do better ourselves without God...or with other gods". Have we?

Jehovah allowed this in order for precedents to be created for all time to come. He does not need to test mankind....the devil is doing it for him. Humans have free will and can benefit from its correct use...or experience the awful consequences of its abuse.

Telling
his free willed creation to obey him, didn't work....so he had to show them what self-determination and self-interest would lead to....the world of complete "ME FIRST" that we have to contend with now. (Ephesians 4:17-18)

How enjoyable is this life? It is the polar opposite of the one we were offered in the beginning, but it had to be our free willed choice to obey God. Its still there, and the offer still stands for those who want to live the "real" life....not this satanically inspired counterfeit. There is only one way to gain it. (John 14:6)

Humans have demonstrated beyond a shadow of all doubt, that they are useless at governing themselves. The one thing we were never given, was the right to make decisions about good and evil. That was to be left to our wise Creator.....power corrupts us, as has been demonstrated all through history.

We believe that we will return to God's first purpose in Eden, but only those who have passed the test will get to live the life we were meant to have.....we all know what that life looks like in our imagination......but it will never be achieved by man in this system of things.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Most everyone in the first world knows about Christianity and Jesus, ad nauseum. I think that is why the monotheistic religions are focusing on third world nations now. The first world knows and doesn't care.

I'm not convinced its working that well in the third world either. It might be. Generally what happens is the third lags the first world by 20 years or so. Another point that I think should be made is the waste of human resources. Imagine if all that time and effort, not to mention money, was put into third world infrastructure, or distribution of Covid vaccine right now when its needed most. That might do some actual good.
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
As I said, for us its not about quantity but about quality.....God is not one bit interested in pretenders who ride the coattails of others so as to gain the reward. They will get nothing from him.

There are a couple of scriptures that I believe answers your question in a way that makes sense to us.

1 John 5:19...
"We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one."

This unseen 'ruler of the world' has an agenda concerning God's worshippers.....to divide and conquer them by testing their faith to the limit. He wants victims who will go down with him when the jig is up. Whether we become one is entirely up to us. We will believe whatever we want to believe....even if its wrong....because of this innate selfishness in us.

But Luke 22:31...says....
" Satan has demanded to have all of you to sift you as wheat."
What does sifting accomplish? It separates the grain from the chaff.....so trials of our faith do the same thing.
The wheat remains, whilst the chaff is separated out and discarded.
Satan gets the chaff....God gets the wheat. By how we live our lives, we show God which one we are.

If we understand that God is not causing this, but allowing it, in order to determine who has the qualities that he is looking for as citizens of his incoming Kingdom, it makes perfect sense IMO. This is the one form of rulership that mankind has never experienced.....the one we should have had in the beginning but were persuaded to forfeit by what appeared to be a better offer......."we can do better ourselves without God...or with other gods". Have we?

Jehovah allowed this in order for precedents to be created for all time to come. He does not need to test mankind....the devil is doing it for him. Humans have free will and can benefit from its correct use...or experience the awful consequences of its abuse.

Telling
his free willed creation to obey him, didn't work....so he had to show them what self-determination and self-interest would lead to....the world of complete "ME FIRST" that we have to contend with now. (Ephesians 4:17-18)

How enjoyable is this life? It is the polar opposite of the one we were offered in the beginning, but it had to be our free willed choice to obey God. Its still there, and the offer still stands for those who want to live the "real" life....not this satanically inspired counterfeit. There is only one way to gain it. (John 14:6)

Humans have demonstrated beyond a shadow of all doubt, that they are useless at governing themselves. The one thing we were never given, was the right to make decisions about good and evil. That was to be left to our wise Creator.....power corrupts us, as has been demonstrated all through history.

We believe that we will return to God's first purpose in Eden, but only those who have passed the test will get to live the life we were meant to have.....we all know what that life looks like in our imagination......but it will never be achieved by man in this system of things.

Ahh, the irony.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Let's assume that the goal of proselytizing is to gain converts. I think it's clear, because of religious growth statistics from the past, that at one time it did work. But in 2021 do you think it still does? So the 2 choices in the debate are simple : Yes it works, or No, it doesn't, and then give your reasons. Of course the third option of 'I don't know' is always available.

I have a couple of observations. At a lot of the ex-________ discussion groups, one of the most common reasons for leaving is the pressure to proselytize, or just exposure to excessive proselytizing. So there's a statistic hidden there somewhere for net loss. Proselytizing also works in some places, I would assume. So which is greater, net loss, or net gain?

The second observation is from the state of Kerala in India, where Christian proselytizing in a heavy way has been going on for about 200 years. As a result, Kerala has one of the largest Christian groups in India. There are smaller states with higher percentages, but Kerala and it's neighbour, TN lead the way in sheer numbers.
The state government now keeps track of changes. Interestingly, in 2020, the highest number of conversions was the Christian to Hindu subsect. (for the first time in history)This wasn't due to proselytising, but due to peoples own volitions, and more or less deconversion, or going back to roots.

Thoughts? (I have more as well.)

Not going well. By way of proxy - the Jehovah Witness figures
In 1998 about one billion of proselytizing (hate that word) yieled 400,000 new baptisms.
Now (not sure what year, maybe last) two billion hours of proselytizing yielded about
250,000 new baptisms.
Half the yield for double the effort.

I say 'proxy' because these figures might hold for most 'other' Christian groups.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Not going well. By way of proxy - the Jehovah Witness figures
In 1998 about one billion of proselytizing (hate that word) yieled 400,000 new baptisms.
Now (not sure what year, maybe last) two billion hours of proselytizing yielded about
250,000 new baptisms.
Half the yield for double the effort.

I say 'proxy' because these figures might hold for most 'other' Christian groups.
That's 8000 hours for 1 baptism. Amazing.

Thanks for this.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Ahh, the irony.
What irony?

As I have stated a few times now...it is not about numbers for us. In fact the decrease in numbers responding to the message means more to us than any increase......for the simple reason that, as time gets closer to the judgement, less and less people will be responding to the message. Those who tried and failed still have opportunity to return, but time is running out according to Bible prophesy.

Like Noah's ark, you have to be inside the vessel to be saved...not outside doing your own thing. It was God who closed the door of the ark...not Noah. The nay-sayers had lots of company.

If God has a time limit for the gathering of the "wheat", and his storehouse is almost filled to capacity now, it may well be time for the object lesson to finish.

We have often said about those who complain about our visits.....be concerned when we stop preaching.....
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Bible has requirements that, in this day and age, are harder to live by, than in the past.
I suspect, but there may be stats out there directly addressing the question, that the emphasis on chastity has been a feature of the middle classes, not matched in the poorer or richer classes; and that the rise in the average number of sexual partners for the middle classes takes off with the coming of the contraceptive pill in the 1950s ─ female control of female fertility was an extraordinary game-changer.
Take, for instance, the Bible’s stance on fornication.... it seems that very few, relative to the world’s population, restrain their sexual activity, and limit it to their marriage mate. In fact, a less percentage of people now (than, say, 60 years ago) even want to get married. As in, “get the milk for free.”
I think the moral issue is trust between couples, whether married or not. If the deal is, no outside coupling, then it's proper to stick to the deal.
However, living by that Scriptural standard, as well as the Bible’s guidelines of ‘husbands loving their wives’ and ‘wives respecting their husbands,’ provides a solid foundation for a happy family and a safe haven for raising well-adjusted children.
I think that's true, though it's not dependent on religion. But it will never be universal, because not all humans are like that.
It’s really the best way of living, in the long run, but unfortunately in today’s social climate, it needs “selling”, if you will.

Self-control, in almost anything, is not popular.
But copulation is about the most important thing humans do, the rationale and purpose of their surviving. Look at the male and female bodies, look at the way each sex dresses, uses or doesn't use makeup, from pink cradle or blue cradle to post-fertile grave.

The impulses built into our human foundations are still there, even if the pill is capable of separating them from their generative purpose.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
What if people have never heard of the product? How would they know it exists if nobody told them about it? Do you consider 'telling' someone about the product proselytizing?
Ah, the forum members know that you exist. It is repeated copy-pasting that gets many.
I just don't like people 'pushing' me. Proselytizing feels like that.
Me too, I push back with double force.
I don't find any monotheistic preaching convincing in the least
It is all talk, promises or threats; snake-oil selling.
I think that is why the monotheistic religions are focusing on third world nations now. The first world knows and doesn't care.
Because the uneducated and superstitious can be fooled.
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
What if people have never heard of the product? How would they know it exists if nobody told them about it? Do you consider 'telling' someone about the product proselytizing? By definition, it is not proselytizing unless you are trying to convert somebody.

There was a question on last night's jeopardy where the answer was 'the Baha'i faith' and none of the 3 got it. I thought they looked puzzled.
 
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