in the beginning (Genesis) do we really?

[Melody]

What's that suppose to mean?

If you're referring to my "zipper" comment, then it's the only polite response I can make to those who look at women as little children who need a guardian. Fundamentalist Christianity has this same demeaning attitude towards women.

 

[linwood]

your translation is not necessarily the same as all translations. But i believe it is not an intentional or unintentional mistranslation because it is not a mistranslation at all. the "incense" of sacrifice would be equivalent to the "smell " of sacrifice. Reek is another word for a bad smell. If something is abhorrent, it would be a bad smell, therefore reek is just as appropriate if not more appropriate than incense. This is an appropriate translation. I do not know which version of the bible was used, but whether it says incense or reek, it still makes the point that God does not want sacrifices of that nature.

That is true but "reek" is not the word I challenge.
the word I challenge is "sacrifice"

To exchange the word "Incense" with "sacrifice" is to change the meaning of the sentence.

In no way can that change be correct.

If it were changed from "incense" to "the smell/scent of sacrifce" then it would be correct.

See what I mean?

The way it is written in the initial post makes it look like God is against the sacrifice itself.

 

[Natural Submission]

i have cited the evidence, if you wish to ignore truth that is up to you.

 

[Scott1]

** Moved to debate forum

 

[john313]

If you're referring to my "zipper" comment, then it's the only polite response I can make to those who look at women as little children who need a guardian. Fundamentalist Christianity has this same demeaning attitude towards women.

He did not mean it in a demeaning way at all. It is a fact that the average man is stronger than the average woman. If strength is needed, then it is the man's responsibility to protect his wife. This was especially true before there were policepeople everywhere you look and before firearms. It is in no way demeaning.
Sorry to steal your response nat.sub.

 

[john313]

Linwood,
Sorry, i misunderstood what you were saying. i will get back to it later God willing. right now it is time to eat.:woohoo:

 

[linwood]

Enjoy the meal.

 

[john313]

tasty meal, but too much hot sauce. i feel like Homer in the guatemalan insanity pepper episode, but i don't think i will meet a coyote that speaks like johnny cash. anyway, I do see what you are saying, but I can also see how there could be a translation like that of N.S.'s. Mine says: "Bring no more futile sacrifices; incense is an abomonation to Me." It does not say if it is incense that was burned during sacrifice or if it is just incense in general. It is in the same sentence as "bring no more futile sacrifices" though. I need to learn Hebrew so I can read that version. Without knowing the original hebrew words it is difficult to say, but I can see how the complex sentence in my bible could be shortened into what was posted. Many of the hebrew words have multiple meanings and this one could be incense/smell/who knows what else. If anyone knows hebrew and can clear this up it would be great. Thank you for the good wishes on my meal. It appears we are at an impasse on this particular subject.

 

[linwood]

Mine says: "Bring no more futile sacrifices; incense is an abomonation to Me." It does not say if it is incense that was burned during sacrifice or if it is just incense in general. It is in the same sentence as "bring no more futile sacrifices" though.

Yes it`s the context that makes me believe he`s speaking of animal sacrifices but it could technically mean any "smell" or literally "incense".
The "futile" in your version would seem to support my reading .

I need to learn Hebrew so I can read that version. Without knowing the original hebrew words it is difficult to say, but I can see how the complex sentence in my bible could be shortened into what was posted. Many of the hebrew words have multiple meanings and this one could be incense/smell/who knows what else.

I use this online Bible for its concordance.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/

I realise it`s the KJV and one needs to keep that in mind when reading it but each verse has a selection of letters next to it.
Click in the "c" and it will take you to a good concordance that will show you the original Hebrew,Aramic, or Greek and all the different uses of the word depending on what you are looking at.

It appears we are at an impasse on this particular subject.

I don`t mind an impasse, as long as it`s honest.

Thanks

 

[john313]

That's a neat bible site, thank you for it, I will add it to my favorites and i guess i don't need to learn hebrew. The hebrew word q@toreth {ket-o'-reth} translated as the english "incense" came up with alternate meanings of: incense, smoke, odour of (burning) sacrifice; so it could be translated just as easily as the odor(reek) of sacrifice. Since the first part of the sentence is about sacrifice, i would translate it as the odor of sacrifice, but i am no linguist. This would be a lot easier if we just had a time machine.

 

[linwood]

That's a neat bible site, thank you for it, I will add it to my favorites and i guess i don't need to learn hebrew.

You`re welcome

i would translate it as the odor of sacrifice, but i am no linguist.

I agree but I`m no linguist either.

This would be a lot easier if we just had a time machine.

For you maybe but as an atheist I bet it would be pretty rough on me.

 

[Melody]

He did not mean it in a demeaning way at all. It is a fact that the average man is stronger than the average woman. If strength is needed, then it is the man's responsibility to protect his wife. This was especially true before there were policepeople everywhere you look and before firearms. It is in no way demeaning.
Sorry to steal your response nat.sub.

I happen to know a 98 pound, 4'11 woman who holds a 2nd degree black belt in karate and could kick the pants off a man twice her size and bulk.

I still haven't made the connection between physical strength and the attitude of viewing women as children who need a caretaker.

Sorry MOD....I know it's off topic. Feel free to move it to its own little closet. I'm going to go look for that zipper now.

 

[Master Vigil]

"I happen to know a 98 pound, 4'11 woman who holds a 2nd degree black belt in karate and could kick the pants off a man twice her size and bulk."

WOOHOO!!!!!!! I have the pleasure of being teammates with girls like that. They really can kick a**. Sorry, go ahead and get back on topic people.

 

[Ceridwen018]

Melody--all of this has inspired me to create a new thread. Come and join me!

 

[oracle]

In the Qur'an it says man has been put in charge of women. This is because man has PHYSICALLY been made STRONGER than woman

 

[Master Vigil]

I'd also like to point out that bodybuilders aren't that strong. They tone their muscles by using smaller weight with higher reps to build their muscle tissue. If you really want to see strong, watch the dead lifters in the olympics. They look fat. But that is how the REALLY strong look. Not like bodybuilders like alot of people think. However, make no mistake that bodybuilders are still alot stronger than the average person. Needless to say, that woman could definitely bench my little a**.

 

[painted wolf]

In my faith eveything in creation was made equil to everything elce.
Man was not superior to animal or woman.
We all had our roles in society. Man and woman were partners not leader and follower.

wa:do

 

[oracle]

I'd also like to point out that bodybuilders aren't that strong. They tone their muscles by using smaller weight with higher reps to build their muscle tissue. If you really want to see strong, watch the dead lifters in the olympics. They look fat. But that is how the REALLY strong look. Not like bodybuilders like alot of people think. However, make no mistake that bodybuilders are still alot stronger than the average person. Needless to say, that woman could definitely bench my little a**.

Well true. I have to train myself because of my profession. You gotta train for both strength and endurance. Now when I train for strength, I eat a lot, and in the process I gain much weight. In order to build mass, you lift large weights and eat a lot. The toning down makes muscles ripped, which also causes you to lose some strength. However you gain endurance in the process. Endurance is good though, you need both.

 

[michel]

In the book of Genesis the scriptures say Man has dominion over animals. IF that is true, how come some bite, scratch or eat people?

because they resent Man for having 'dominion' over them ?

The animal (and that includes man) instict of survival; often brought on by fear and fear of the unknown>

 

[oracle]

In the book of Genesis the scriptures say Man has dominion over animals. IF that is true, how come some bite, scratch or eat people?

Well I wouldn't percieve it as dominion, more like a distinction made between other animals, and that would be the complexity of the human mind on an evolutionary scale.