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In Short - The Noachide/7 Mitvahs an explaination

Discussion in 'Theological Concepts' started by Ehav4Ever, Jul 1, 2020.

  1. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Carried over from a question in another thread. Questions came up about the Noachide "movement."

    This explaination may give a better insight to what is meant by a Noachide.
    1. According to Torah and Halakha Adam was given 6 mitzvoth by Hashem. The 7th mitzvah was given during the generation of Noach and his sons, after the flood. These mitzvahs are termed as the 7 Mitzvoth or as the "Noachide Laws." They are considered the mitzvahs that all humans are created to hold by - i.e. all humans are considered to be Noachides, if you will. Some have followed/follow these mitzvah's many don't or only partially do.
    2. During the time of Abraham, he and his household accepted another mitzvah of circumcision. During the time of Isaac and Jacob more mitzvah's were accepted that set them apart from the nations around them.
    3. When the Torah was given at Mount Sinai, all of Jacab's descendants and some of the mixed multitude accepted the 613 mitzvah's as a nation based on Torah together.
    4. In the mitzvahs, given at Mount Sinai, there were also the reality of both the Geir Tzedeq (a non-Jew who converts and lives exactly as a Jew) and a Geir Toshav (a non-Jew who accepts the 7 Mitzvoth/Noachide Laws and is allowed to live in/pass through Israel. A geir toshav is not a convert like a Geir Tzedeq.) Often the english translations are not clear on this issue and they often categorize both of them as "the stranger." The Hebrew is more clear and so is Jewish law.
    5. Both the Torah given at Mount Sinai to the people of Israel and the 7 Mitzvoth/Noachide imcumbant on the entire world come from Hashem.
    6. Thus, there is no requirement for a non-Jew to become a Jew in order to be in the favor of Hashem or to have a portion in the world to come. If a non-Jew follows the 7 Mitzvoth/Noachide laws they are doing the will of Hashem for the non-Jewish nations.
     
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  2. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    First of all does this even apply to me if I don't live around Jews? Without them what meaning does it have?

    By what method am I to know that these 7 mitzvas are meant for me and all humans?

    Why are there 7? Why not six or eight?

    Is there a difference between a regular Jew and a Geir Tzedeq? If so I was unaware of it until now.

    Which world are they incumbent upon? Am I in it? How do I know which world you speak of? Is there only one?

    What is the world to come? What are you talking about?
     
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  3. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Greetings,
    1. What it means, according to Jewish sources, is that all of humanity whether Jewish or not and whether not one lives near Jews have 7 mitzvahs that the Creator all of things gave.
    2. According to Jewish sources, most of the 7 are basic common sense that all humans have built into their humanity. A person can choose to turn them off. A few of them require a human to consider what created all of reality. Further, one would need to determine if the Torah gave these mitzvah's by way of what Hashem gave to Moses. If so, we Torath Mosheh Jews are open to explaining what they are and ways of implementing them.
    3. There are 7 mitzvahs because that is the amount that Hashem gave. YET, these are the "basis" of human society. Thus, like there is a contitution and there are amendments that are some sources that state that the 7 mitzvah can be extrapulated to 66 or more due the intracacies of building a functioning society.
    4. The difference between a Geir Tzedeq and a Jew who is a not a Geir Tzedeq is that a Geir Tzedeq was not born as a Jew. I.e. they joined the Jewish people where the Jew was born into the Jewish people. Once a non-Jew becomes a Geir Tzedeq they are considered to be 100% Jewish and the same mitzvahs that a person born Jewish does they also do. Same rewards and punishments also. The only thing that is different is in the mitzvahs for the Levites and the Kohanim and also the mitzvahs that require at least one born Jewish parent. (Kingship and certain leadership positions) There was a time that some Geir Tzedeq's would try to marry their daughters, from born Jewish wives, to Kohanim so that they could say that their grandchildren worked in the Temple in Jerusalem.
    5. When I wrote "imcumbant on the entire world" I mean all human beings.
    6. The world to come is a term used to describe the "reward" that Hashem put in place for those who do the mitzvahs, after the person passes away, and after the revival of the dead during the days of Davidic Kingdom in the Land of Israel is returned. Jewish sources try to stay away from giving a lot of details about the world to come since the idea is not to focus on what it is like but instead focus on the doing the will of Hashem in this world.
    I hope that helps.
     
    #3 Ehav4Ever, Jul 1, 2020
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  4. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    @Brickjectivity that's simply what Jews call converts in Hebrew.
     
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  5. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Thanks for taking the time to reply.
     
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  6. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Thank you.
     
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  7. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    IMO, your OP was informative. One of my "take-aways" (or lessons learned) from it is that: Judaism and/or Hebrew appears to identify three categories of humans who are, theoretically, able "to please Hashem":
    1. a Jew, but not just any Jew;
    2. a Geir Tzedeq; and
    3. a Geir Toshav.
    re Category #1:
    • The "potentially acceptable" Jew must be a biological descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
    • The potentially acceptable Jew must be a biological descendant of a Jew "who stood at Sinai and received the Torah".
    re Category #2:
    • The potentially acceptable Geir Tzedeq must be a bona fide convert who, in conversion, attains the status of a Jew "who stood at Sinai" by virtue of his or her guardian angel who "stood at Sinai and accepted the Torah" on his or her behalf. Conversion involves a commitment to obey the 613 mitzvoth daily for the remainder of their life in this world.
    • The only difference between Category #1 and Category #2 that I can see is that #2s are not, or have reason to believe that they are not, biological descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
    re Category #3:
    • The potentially acceptable Geir Toshav must be a person who accepts and obeys "the 7 Noachide mitzvoth" daily for the remainder of their life in this world.
    • As I understand your OP, one of the benefits of being a Geir Toshav is the freedom of living in or traveling through Israel.
    • The differences between Categories #1 & 2 and Category #3 are that #3s are not biological descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and that #3s are not converts, i.e. they only commit themselves to accepting and obeying "the 7 Noachide mitzvoth" and no others for the remainder of their lives in this world.
    Questions:
    1. Are the distinctions that I make above sufficient and accurate?
    2. Are Jews Geir?
    3. Are Palestinians Geir Toshav?
    4. Are Muslims Geir Toshav?
    5. Given the זוהמה (zohamah) inherited from Eve, what authority says that the zohama of anyone who is neither an "acceptable Jew" or an "acceptable Geir Tzedeq" does not still exist?
      • Here, I note that
        • Shabbat 145b-146a says: "whereas gentiles did not stand at Mount Sinai, and their contamination never ceased";
        • Yevamot 103b says: "whereas with regard to gentiles, who did not stand at Mount Sinai, their contamination never ceased";
        • Avodah Zarah 22b: "whereas in the case of gentiles, who did not stand at Mount Sinai and receive the Torah, their contamination has not ended."
      • Again, by what authority does the zohama of non-Jews and non-Geir Tzedeq not exist?
      • If, on the other hand, the zohama of non-Jews who are not Geir Tzedeq still exists, then how is it that anyone can suggest that contaminated non-Jews and non-Geir Tzedeq can "please Hashem" merely by accepting and obeying "the 7 Noachide mitzvoth"?
      • If, however, accepting and obeying "the 7 Noachide mitzvoth" is sufficient to remove the zohama of non-Geir Tzedeq, who should take the ancient tale of Eve's alleged "defilement" seriously, other than as a folk-tale told to children "to explain" why snakes don't have legs?
     
  8. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Actually, there are a few more categories:

    Israel/Jews
    1. Those born of ancestry:
      • Kohanim (Descendants of Aharon)
      • Levi'im (Non-Aharon descendents of the tribe of Levi)
      • Israelis/Jews of the other tribes
    2. Geir Tzedeq
      • Non-Jewish convert
    Non-Israelis/Jews
    1. Geir Toshav
      • A type of Noachide - Non-Israeli/Jewish person who has lives by the 7 noachide laws and has been approved by an Israeli Torah Court to be able to live in the land of Israel. This approval only takes place 1 every 50 years. (Based on Mishnah Torah)
      • What makes this type of Noachide a Gier "Toshav" is the approval to live in the land of Israel or pass through it when there is a Torah based kingdom by Davidic liniange rule.
    2. Ben/Bat Noach - A non-Israeli/Jew who keeps the 7 noachide laws. This would be any person living anywhere in the world.
      • The rest of the world essentially.
     
  9. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    And what are non-Israeli/Jews called who don't keep all 7 noachide laws and who far outnumber those who keep the 7 noachide laws?
     
  10. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Are Muslim and Sikh ben Noach?
     
  11. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Not potentially and not must be. Just is. I.e. if you were to check all known information about them and their family you would find that their parents-grandparents going back generation after generation were known to be Jewish on both sides and having been married according to Jewish law.

    Not exactly. There is no "attains the status of a Jew who stood at Sinai." They are a Geir Tzedeq because they have gone before a Torah based court of 3 knowledgible Jews in Torah/Halakha (Jewish law) who have followed the process set down by Jewish law for bringing non-Jews to live as a Jew by Torah. No guardian angels and such. Their commitment is not to the 613 mitzvoth since the 613 is for the entire nation, not individuals. Their commitment that is checked is their commitment to the Jewish people, Hashem, and the performance of the will of Hashem for Israel mitzvoth.

    This link may help with understanding the process a bit. HERE.

    Actually, a Geir Tzedeq could easily be someone with a biological ancestry to Avraham, etc. YET their family's standing may have questions surrounding it. For example, there were Jews who converted to Christianity by force during the Inquisition. Some of their descendants have been finding their way out of Christinaity and reconnecting by going to a Torah based court to become a Geir Tzedeq. In cases where a Jewish man has married a non-Jewish woman who did not convert their children are not Jewish according to Torah/halakha so a Torah based court can fix the situation by having them become Geir Tzedeq. The reason why takes a bit to explain but mayb in a different post.

    A better way of looking at is that they are simply doing what is imcumbant on all humans. Yet, as Jews we are not required to missionize or force the world to do what Hashem has commanded. We are only responsible for the land of Israel in that regard. Thus, to be a Toshav they would have to accept the 7 mitzvoth which means they accept the Torah based requiremetns for the land of Israel, but for example they are not required to not do work on Shabbat like a Jew is because according to the Torah the non-Jewish nations were never given a command to keep Shabbat. Only Jews were given this.

    See answers to your questions in red.

    Questions:
    1. Are the distinctions that I make above sufficient and accurate?
    2. Are Jews Geir? (When the Torah was given at mount Sinai it is considered that everyone who was their was a Geir. A bit complicated to explain but I can explain in another post. Post Mount Sinai )
    3. Are Palestinians Geir Toshav? (No, the modern state of Israel is not Torah based thus currently there are no Geir Toshav since you would need a Torah based nation and courts to accept them only once every 50 years.)
    4. Are Muslims Geir Toshav? (No, same reason as above. There are some who "kind of" consider them to be somewhat Noachides. The main issue is that a Noachide according to some must accept that the source for the Noachide laws post mount Sinai comes from accepting that Hashem gave Moses the information about them that is post mount Sinai and not claim that we Jews don't have the correct Torah and such.)
    5. Given the זוהמה (zohamah) inherited from Eve, what authority says that the zohama of anyone who is neither an "acceptable Jew" or an "acceptable Geir Tzedeq" does not still exist? (The contamination being talked about is a choice and not biological. I.e. anyone can choose to not accept Avodah Zarah and walk away from it.)
      • Here, I note that
        • Shabbat 145b-146a says: "whereas gentiles did not stand at Mount Sinai, and their contamination never ceased"; (You really have to look at the wording they used in Hebrew/Aramaic. The words they use identify what type of non-Jews they are talking about. I.e. in the Talmud sometiems Goyyim does not mean non-Jews it can mean "the non-Jewish nations who do Avodah Zara.)
        • Yevamot 103b says: "whereas with regard to gentiles, who did not stand at Mount Sinai, their contamination never ceased"; (See above)
        • Avodah Zarah 22b: "whereas in the case of gentiles, who did not stand at Mount Sinai and receive the Torah, their contamination has not ended." (See above)
      • Again, by what authority does the zohama of non-Jews and non-Geir Tzedeq not exist?
      • If, on the other hand, the zohama of non-Jews who are not Geir Tzedeq still exists, then how is it that anyone can suggest that contaminated non-Jews and non-Geir Tzedeq can "please Hashem" merely by accepting and obeying "the 7 Noachide mitzvoth"? (Hashem is clear that you are not bound by your ancestry. You are bound by your choices. If you found out one day that you were on the wrong path and making bad decisions, ones you learned from family/environment/friends/etc. you can choose to turn away from them and make the choice to get on the right path. Your decisions can break you out of any unproductive cycle if you choose it. That is something, we hold, that is basically in the programming. Thus, there are some who say that the mistep of Adam was that he didn't immediately make shuva/admit his mistake and make an immediate change. If I remember correctly there is a Psalm that is claimed to be his repentence years after the mistake.)
      • If, however, accepting and obeying "the 7 Noachide mitzvoth" is sufficient to remove the zohama of non-Geir Tzedeq, who should take the ancient tale of Eve's alleged "defilement" seriously, other than as a folk-tale told to children "to explain" why snakes don't have legs? (You shouldn't take the idea seriously because that is not what the midrashim are even getting at. As we discussed before the point they are making is not about a biological defilement since our actions are defiled by our parents and such UNLESS we choose to carry on their mistakes. For example, Moses's father in law walked away from the Avodah Zara that was present in his day when he heard about what Hashem had done for Israel.)
     
    #11 Ehav4Ever, Aug 2, 2020
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  12. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    There are some sources that claim that Muslims may "kind of" be but it may depend on the type of Muslims. The Rambam makes a point that Noachides can't go out and start making up religions.

    Another way of looking at it is that a Noachide would accept that Israel got the Torah from Hashem (written and oral) and thus there wouldn't be any theological or national conflicts between Jews and Noachides.
     
  13. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Essentially, the same as Jews who don't keep the Torah as Hashem gave it at Mount Sinai. There is a term for both but it less of the issue rather the concept is more important because one would have to address why don't do or do do something. I.e. they are losing more than they are winning at keeping the commands of Hashem. Thus, we recognize that really Hashem is the judge on many aspects of this.
     
  14. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    That sounds more than a little ad hoc.

    So, the 8th Law is: No true Noahide would accept Muhammad. Clever!
     
  15. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    The reasons why it may seem ad hoc is because it is not up to Jews to determine who is and who isn't a Noachide UNLESS there is a Torah based Israeli nation in the land of Israel that has the components of a Torah based nation. I.e. Davidic King, Mosaic Court, Temple in Jerusalem, Torah based borders, local Torah courts, and a clear sign that Hashem supports said nation. In such a situaiton then such a determination is only relevant to Jews if a non-Jew wanted to become a Geir Toshav i.e. a Noachide who can live in or pass through such a nation. Outside of such a nation is not the place of Jews to try and define the rest of the world.

    Yet, I do know of some views that consider that Islam is simply a Noachide movement that went to far/in the wrong direction and made up a religion. See below on what I mean. So, again there are ideas about how to view it but the bigger issue in our current time is - if there are no national conflicts between an Islamic nation and the modern state of Israel.

    In terms of an 8th law. Think about from this angle. The Rambam mentions that the source of the 6 of the Noachide laws was given from Hashem to Adam and his descendants. During the time of Noach and additional one was made. For the descendants of Avraham circumcision was added by Hashem. That being said, a Noachide who essentially makes up "religious" practices is adding something that Hashem did not command for them to do. No different than a Jew who decides to just make up a mitzvah, claiming that this new mitzvah wa given directly by Hashem, that was not commanded is similar.

    This is of course outside of the accepted realm of judicial laws, amendments, etc. that are the normal part of any judicial system. This type of judicial progression is acceptable because that was already built into both the Torah from Mount Sinai and the Noachide system. YET, as a Jew if I were to claim/teach/etc. that "here is this 614th mitzvah that Hashem gave to Mosheh" and Hashem in reality never gave a 614th Mitzvah to Mosheh that is no different than a Noachide who could claim, "I spoke to Hashem and he gave me some additional ideas/commands" and in reality no such commands came from Hashem, and no such commands were given to Mosheh who was/is/will be the top level of Nevi'im.

    Let me know if I should explain this better. Some of concepts are easier for me to understand and explain in Hebrew more than in English.
     
    #15 Ehav4Ever, Aug 2, 2020
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  16. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    I forgot to mention. The Rambam states in the Mishnah Torah that even if a non-Israeli/Jew is not keeping the Noachide it is still the baseline they are required to establish. Kind of like someone being a citizen of a nation and being subject to the national laws if the choose not to follow the national laws. So, you are born and human - you are supposed to be a Noachide. Just as a Jew is born and is supposed to be a Torah based Jew. Each person can choose not to accept this requirement.

    I hope that makes it more clear.
     
  17. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    No, thank you.
     
  18. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    You misunderstand the reason for my saying "potentially". I was hesitant to assume that a biological descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and a biological descendant of a Jew "who stood at Sinai and received the Torah" would automatically and necessarily be able to please Hashem solely on the basis of their biological descent from the right kind of humans. If you want to speak for Hashem, knock yourself out, but I'm not going to. My choice of words stand.

    The opposite of "must be" is "cannot be", not "just is".
    Uhhh, ... being a Geir Tzedeq "because they have gone before a Torah based court ..." is the kind of stuff that I assumed "being a bona fide convert" involves. I wasn't suggesting that "standing at Sinai" or "having a guardian angel who stood at Sinai" makes a person a "bona fide convert". Gettting a guardian angel who stood at Sinai on your behalf" is, IMO, a benefit of conversion, not a necessary condition in becoming a convert.
    Interesting, but irrelevant: Equally trivial and irrelevant is the fact that to "be a Christian" here in RF, one merely needs to claim to be, consequently there are some remarkably oddball folks who claim to be Christian or to have been a Christian simply on the basis of the fact that they went to a Christian Church a couple of times, or "were born Christian", and left the Church.
    Okay, ... so is anyone a Toshav who simply claims to be a Toshav, or is there a process or ritual that a Toshav is obliged to undergo in order to get independent certification of their Toshav-ness?
    So, where it is written that: "in the case of gentiles, who did not stand at Mount Sinai and receive the Torah, their contamination has not ended", the Talmud doesn't actually mean that the zohamma of only those who stood at Sinai and received the Torah ceased." I suppose that that will be of comfort to the Noachides regardless what non-Noachide non-Jews believe.
    So, as you seem to suggest, Hashem has never ever suggested, much less said, that one person's sin can be imputed to another person. Can one person's merit be imputed to another person?
     
    #18 Terry Sampson, Aug 2, 2020
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  19. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    "Not about a biological defilement"???
    Then how can our actions be defiled by our parents?
    Or are you saying that a Jew's actions can be defiled by his or her parents' actions, but non-Jews don't have to worry about that happening?
     
    #19 Terry Sampson, Aug 2, 2020
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  20. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Again, the biology is not the issue. According to the Torah a person who is born into a Jewish family is supposed to keep the mitzvoth that came from Mount Sinai. The reason is because there are mitzvoth that require their parents, grandparents, other family, community leaders, community, etc. are supposed to raise them that way. Further, at Mouunt Sinai the generation that was there accepted it for themselves and future generations of children.

    That is why I say "just is." Because for a Jew doing the mitzvoth given by Hashem is the default. Even, if a Jewish chooses to opt out and even if their parents didn't raise them that way. If they didn't make them choice for themselves to not keep the Torah, the Torah provides a system for Jews who keep the Torah to try and help lost Jews return to what they are supposed to be doing by default. If they chose to opt out the Torah provides methods for them to correct that choice if that is what they want to do.

    According to the Torah, this is the behaviour on a national and person level that Hashem stated is pleasing to him for the Israeli/Jewish people.

    This isn't me, speaking for Hashem, these things are in the Torah so essentially this is what Hashem said not me. It could be that we have two different views on what pleases Hashem and what Hashem stated is pleasing.

    Not opposite of the statement "must be." A correction to the entire statement, "The "potentially acceptable" Jew must be a biological descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."

    Israelis/Jews as a nation and as individuals doing the mitzvoth of Hashem is both pleasing to Hashem and brings about the good that Hashem put in place for doing such.

    What I am correcting is the concept of "angels" that operate in the way you are mentioning.
    Even the western concept of an angel is not something that considered correct. The definitions of a Geir Tzedeq make no connection to receiving a guardian angel or any angels to begin with. Thus, I am trying seperate ideas that have nothing to do what a Geir Tzedeq is or even what they receive by being a Jew. "THE" benefit of the conversion is that they are "doing the mitzvoth of Hashem, given to the Israeli/Jewish people just a born Israeli/Jew is defaulted to do, and thus is both pleasing to Hashem and brings about the good that Hashem put in place for a born Israeli/Jew who is doing such." Angels are not a part of the equation. Especially since one would need to first understand if the word and concept of the English term angel is even applicable to what a (מלאך) is in Hebrew.

    It is relevent because of the biological question asked earlier. In terms of how Christianity manages itself - that isn't relevant because Christians manage their religion in a way that is not connected to anything in the Torah and Halakha.

    No, according to the Rambam a Toshav must go before a Torah court in the land of Israel during the time when there is a Torah based nation in the land of Israel to be considered a Toshav which is only accepted during the Jubilee years. Which happens every 50 years.

    When they go before the court they have to be found to accept and hold by the Noachide laws. Just like a normal court the 3 Torah based judges can question them and investigate them on what they hold by and do to determine if they can be accepted as a Toshav. If they are accepted they must observe Noachide laws and Israelis/Jews must treat them with the respect and protection the Torah requires. This is all while they are in the land of Israel. If they leave Israel, Jews have no requirement to follow up on them or enforce the Noachide laws on them.

    What the midrash is getting at is that Mount Sinai, the people who were there (Jewish and not Jewish) made a choice to accept the Torah and thus break the cycle of Avodah Zara that people had been creating and doing with no check against it in place. Avraham had started this process but it is like saying that the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai sealed it. Thus, even the influence of the event started the process of ending Avodah Zara which several decreased with the spread of certain Tanakh based ideals that have spread abot the world - even by groups who were not fully keeping the Noachide laws correctly.

    You also have to remember that the Talmud was written during a time when Avodah Zara, as a choice and the practice of it, was more widespread. Since that time there has been a lot of moving of the world away from many, but not all, of the types of Avodah Zara of that time. The Rambam, who lived a bit after the time of the Talmud states that even though Christinaity and Islam are not fully following Noachide laws in one way or the other they "at least" got the word out about the Tanakh about Hashem - so when their is a return of the Torah based sytem in the land of Israel it will make it easier for the world to turn towards the Noachide laws because they will at least of a idea of what they are - even if they don't initially fully understand them.

    Right. According to the Torah each person is responsible or in some cases guilty for their own choices, mistakes, transgressions, etc. YET, said choices, mistakes, transgressions, etc. can effect the standard of living of others and the concepts that others grow up with and develop.

    For example, if a person's father is a theif - they are not responsible for their father being a theif. They can be effected by the results of their father's actions (such as the stigma from society because of the pain and suffering their father caused, or family shame over the father's actions) but they are not responsible for them. Yet, if their father is a theif and they learned to be one too from their father and they go out and continue the lifestyle of their father, then their choice to do so is what they are responsible for. They can choose to break the cycle of what their father taught them, they choose to accept it and take it on, or even advance and become worse than their father. I.e. kind of a like the family business.
     
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