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In Praise of Illegal Immigrants

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by Nous, Jan 10, 2019.

  1. Nous

    Nous Well-Known Member
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    The following presents a few facts on unauthorized immigrants and immigration in the US. Many of these facts have been noted on divers threads here, but two Wikipedia articles conveniently collect and cite references for them.

    Research shows that illegal immigrants increase the size of the U.S. economy, contribute to economic growth, enhance the welfare of natives, contribute more in tax revenue than they collect, reduce American firms' incentives to offshore jobs and import foreign-produced goods, and benefit consumers by reducing the prices of goods and services.[3][4][5][6][7] Economists estimate that legalization of the illegal immigrant population would increase the immigrants' earnings and consumption considerably, and increase U.S. gross domestic product.[8][9][10][11] There is scholarly consensus that illegal immigrants commit less crime than natives.[12][13] Sanctuary cities – which adopt policies designed to avoid prosecuting people solely for being in the country illegally – have no statistically meaningful impact on crime, and may reduce the crime rate.[14][15] Research suggests that immigration enforcement has no impact on crime rates.[16][17][14]

    [. . . ]

    The illegal immigrant population of the United States peaked in 2007, when it was at 12.2 million and 4% of the total U.S. population.[18][3] Since the Great Recession, more illegal undocumented immigrants have left the United States than entered it, and illegal border crossings are at the lowest levels they have been in decades.[19][20][21][22]


    From 2005 to 2009, the number of people entering the U.S. illegally declined by nearly 67%, according to the Pew Hispanic Center, from 850,000 yearly average in the early 2000s to 300,000.[41]

    Illegal immigration to the United States - Wikipedia


    The 2008 global financial crisis has had a large impact on the United States. The construction sector and other areas illegal immigrants traditionally seek employment shrunk. The recession also led to a surplus of American labor, driving down the benefit of hiring illegal immigrants.[13] According to the Pew Research Center, in 2007 the number of unauthorized Mexican immigrants peaked at 6.9 million and has dropped by more than 1 million to an estimated 5.6 million in 2014.[14]

    After the Great Recession, more immigrants actually returned to Mexico rather than migrated to the United States.[3] From 2009 to 2014, 1 million Mexicans and their families left the U.S. for Mexico. U.S. census data for the same period show an estimated 870,000 Mexican nationals left Mexico to return to the U.S.[3]

    [. . . ]

    Since about 2014, most illegal immigrants living in the U.S. have been long-term residents. In 2014, about two-thirds (66%) had been in the U.S. for ten years or more, while just 14% had been in the U.S. for less than five years.[4][3]

    Just as the total population of illegal immigrants in the U.S. has declined since 2007, the proportion of illegal immigrants in the workforce has also declined; in 2012, illegal immigrants made up 5.1% of the U.S.'s civilian labor force. Unauthorized immigrant workers are over-represented in certain. economic sectors, making up 26% of farming, fisheries, and forest workers; 17% of cleaning, maintenance, and groundskeeping workers; 14% of construction workers; and 11% of food preparation workers.[15]

    Illegal immigrant population of the United States - Wikipedia


    From the above, one can readily deduce that the primary factor motivating illegal immigration can be summarized as "It's the economy, stupid." Further, the above facts demonstrate that there is a highly effective humanitarian way to reduce illegal immigration by way of traffic across the Southern border, namely, by supporting the labor markets and economic policies in Mexico and Central American countries. This is obviously easier said than done, and requires expertise beyond that of a delusional 70-year-old man who has lived all his life off the gift of hundreds of millions of dollars from his father and stealing from others through corporations.

    Similarly obvious is the fact that not every labor-intensive job that Americans do not want to perform can be exported to Mexico and Central America. Facilitating temporary visas for such workers is necessary -- which is currently done to a degree now (apparently Trump hires them as dishwashers, servers and/or maids in his businesses). Naturally a certain percentage of such workers will overstay their visas. There is no rational reason to fearmonger about these illegal immigrants.

    But the xenophobic and racist bigotry that motivates Trump and his sycophants to squeal for a border wall has largely diverted attention from truly effective humanitarian policies. The despicable squealing about rapists and murderers coming across the Southern border has largely diverted attention from appreciating the value of our neighbors to the South. Anyone who is ignorant of the value generally of persons who have entered by way of the Southern border and stayed here should seek out some of these "illegal aliens" and get to know them. I don't really expect that to be worthwhile or heeded advice for those who have their nose stuck in Trump's butt crack.

    Nevertheless, yesterday at least Senator Schumer's attention was not sp diverted that he overlooked the fact that it isn't miles of border wall that should stand as the symbol of the US, but the Statue of Liberty. I couldn't help but finish out his sentence by remembering those last lines of Emma Lazarus' poem that always bring a lump to my throat:

    The New Colossus


    Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

    With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

    Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

    A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

    Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

    Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

    Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

    The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

    "Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

    With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

    Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"​
     
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  2. Altfish

    Altfish Well-Known Member

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    Stop giving facts...the only relevant question is "Do they make Murica Grate Agin" oh and "Lock her up" and "Mexico's paying for the wall"
     
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  3. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Ignorant Heathen Libertarian Capitalist
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    This really inspires confidence that your argument &
    sources are cromulent enuf to reading that massive post.
    You're just insulting the people you'd like to sway.

    This issue has people on both sides claiming many statistics
    & facts, with everyone believing they have The Truth.
    A neutral & objective analysis would be a breath of fresh air.
     
    #3 Revoltingest, Jan 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  4. Audie

    Audie Well-Known Member

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    As a person who is repelled by Trump, I will say
    this, that I am equally repelled by this sort of cant-

    But the xenophobic and racist bigotry that motivates Trump

    I,and I dare say anyone else who is not up to their
    armpits in this ever escalating war of hyperbole
    am going to largely disregard anything else
    in a post that is such an obvious political hit piece.

    Did, btw, you find space to put in there any other
    considerations besides how wonderful (unlimited)
    immigration might be?

    quick cut and paste here-

    Americans constitute 5% of the world's population but consume 24% of the world's energy. The population is projected to increase by nearly 130 million people - the equivalent of adding another four states the size of California - by the year 2050

    If all the newcomers are to be "Americans" with the
    American level of consumption, how is that going to
    work out for, as the say, "the planet"?

    Any consideration given to what might be a reasonable
    upper limit to US population?

    Is there some sort of game plan, or is it just grow baby grow?

     
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  5. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    Before or after the expense incurred by illegal aliens?

    I'm for immigration laws and the effort to keep illegals out.

    Enforcing Immigration Law Is Cost Effective
     
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  6. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Ignorant Heathen Libertarian Capitalist
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    You addressed it so that I didn't have to.
    Continued economic & population expansion is not a sustainable model.
     
  7. Audie

    Audie Well-Known Member

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    There actually are immigration laws. I sure have
    had to deal with them re my presence in the USA.

    If the Democrats are soooo sincere about their
    wish to open wide the borders, let them introduce
    legislation to make it all LEGAL.

    Any guesses as to why they are not introducing such
    bills?
     
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  8. Audie

    Audie Well-Known Member

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    On a smaller scale, Hong Kong long existed as an
    island of prosperity and freedom set against the
    mass of poverty in China.

    The border fence was not impermeable, but, it was
    sufficiently effective. And it was clearly essential
    if the the colony were not to be economically and
    politically overrun and destroyed by the immigrants.

    A few families, a few hundred thousand, a few more
    million illegal immigrants to the USA, you dont see the
    effect right off, most of us do not. Some of it is positive,
    making it harder to see.

    It is more akin to more C02, more radioactive waste,
    more plastic, more oil, more more more dumped into
    the ocean. A bit more C02 helps plant growth, you cant
    taste the radiation...
     
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  9. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Ignorant Heathen Libertarian Capitalist
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    I notice on RF & in the media that the left opposes business employing illegals.
    But they advocate allowing the illegals to remain here.
    How on Earth would they contribute to the economy if they cannot work?
    Is it by consuming goods & services (provided by taxpayers & charities)?
     
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  10. Audie

    Audie Well-Known Member

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    You want an explanation for the left?

    To quote Hunter S Thompson-

    "Most are Communists; the rest are morally weak,
    or simply insane."
     
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  11. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    So you're saying it is beneficial to keep them illegal.
    Makes sense why nobody in Washington wants to fix anything.
    It's good for the economy, who cares if the Republicans and Democrats play political badminton with undocumented immigrants.
     
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  12. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    Unfortunately, I believe that this is exactly the problem.
    A big pool of cheap labor with few legal rights is a boon to the "investing class". And the undocumented must pay the same price everybody else does for gas and food and housing and whatnot. They help boost the economy.

    What's not to like, if your goal is maximizing returns on investments?
    I believe that is why there wasn't coherent immigration reform back when the problem first truly manifested, during the Bush II administration.

    Tom
     
  13. Stanyon

    Stanyon RF's Ultra -Square

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    Claims of xenophobia, racism, and bigotry have been the rallying cry for several years, don't expect them to stop anytime soon:
     
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  14. Mindmaster

    Mindmaster Well-Known Member
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    Your post it too long for me to quote, @Nous, but... I'll simply address what I have variances with.

    1) Yes, illegal immigrants help the economy. But, they do it by underbidding native workers for the same jobs. It's not that all of a sudden the rest of the American population decided to not do those jobs -- they cannot take them and live to an American standard, and aren't even considered for the in most cases these days. This leaves a ton of young and unskilled people unable to do any work. Our commitment to our citizens should be first, if we feel like worrying about anyone else we do that next. It's the other way right now... By extension, this increases the load on the public welfare system twice -- once by denying willing people work, and secondly expending countless resources on people who work as human chattel and cannot survive otherwise.

    2) They live as a permanent underclass. Can't call the police when people harm them, in most cases, are paid similarly to how "freed slaves" were during the post emancipation era. This is not good for their safety or well-being, and I feel this isn't humanitarian or helping them, in my view, just finding another class of willing slaves.

    3) Hispanics as a population are involved in more crime, thus bringing more crime into your country if you bring more of them. As racist as that comment my seem to some of the bleeding heart around here, facts just don't care about your feelings. 51% of murder arrests are African-American, and 33% are Hispanic. You positively would not lower your nationwide crime states by allowing more people to come from the border. :D Conversely, this math is not xenophobic, it's just math. Of course, any population has the choice to "prove it wrong", or correct themselves. But, the nature of that problem is internal to that groups own proclivities and something they have to address -- though it's not something others have to put up with for fear of being deemed a racist or xenophobe themselves. Safety doesn't need excuses. Race and crime in the United States - Wikipedia

    4) Border wall isn't about curtailing illegal aliens (and never has been) as much as it has been about crime prevention. The ineffectiveness of Mexico's law enforcement creates most of the problem. Most of the illegals aren't necessarily Mexican, and aren't even legal to stay there -- they deport their problem to us, in essence. Since they do not deal with the illegals and pass the buck here, it's a problem they are directly causing. If they stopped and dealt with them there, there'd be far less of a problem for the USA.

    Anyway, watched Trump's comments and the response by the Dems... Trump believes what he said (via body language) and the Dems were lying. So, Trump was talking from his heart, for the Dems they probably basically believe what he does but for them it's a partisan stunt. Feel free to youtube that if you aren't aware of how that works... Anyway, it's probably sometimes more revealing than what they say. Normal people who speak about what they believe actually MOVE when they talk -- they squirm around because they're animate about the matter. (especially Trump, watch any of his public speaking). Pelosi and Schumer were guarded, and even robotic -- typically a trait of someone who is being deceptive.
     
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  15. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Ignorant Heathen Libertarian Capitalist
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    So it's not the Republicans who serve the "investing class", eh.
    Their policies would ruin access to that labor market.
    It's Democrats, whose policy of easing illegal immigration by switching
    to opposing increased border security, by wanting ICE abolished, by
    creating sanctuary cities, & by handing out government benefits are in
    reality working for agricultural & fast food industries, eh.

    Hah!
    I knew it!
    As one in the investing class, you'd naturally favor Hillary.
     
    #15 Revoltingest, Jan 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
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  16. BSM1

    BSM1 Who's a good boy?
    It's My Birthday!

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    So we should all stand and applaud felons? Rule of law means nothing to you?
     
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  17. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    I don't know anybody who wishes for that. There certainly are such dufuses, but I have never met one. It certainly isn't the Democrats, as has been pointed out multiple times on RF. They've been for border security, of a humane variety, for many years.

    My proposal is to issue as many vetted green cards as the USA decides to give jobs to. We, as a society, could make most of them legal with the stroke of Trump's pen.

    Because it's "bad for business".
    Meaning it will take a big bite out of corporate profits.

    Can't have all those low wage workers joining a union or calling in OSHA violations. Next thing ya know, they'll think they're as good as anybody.
    Can't have that.
    Tom
     
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  18. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    As I have pointed out many many times before, I don't see the Demopublicans as all that different from the Republicrats.

    What I do see though, is that the Reps have been running Capitol Hill for nearly all of the time the problem has been such a big one. Capitol Hill is where the solutions are.

    So, another Revolting false equivalence fail. Congratulations!
    Tom
     
  19. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Ignorant Heathen Libertarian Capitalist
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    No, no, no.
    Democrats have been serving your investor class.
    Republicans have not.
    You liberals think everything is false equivalence.
     
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  20. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    I rated this post funny. I meant that in a way so sarcastic that even the "Ew, that's so gay" rating wasn't sufficient.
    But it did make me smile, so there's that.
    Tom
     
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