whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
Why is there sin in the world? and what's the solution if there is?
"All the Word put under sin" from the Psalms
"All the Word put under sin" from the Psalms
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In our view did God put the world under sin or did man or neither or both?
- Thread starter whirlingmerc
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dianaiad
Well-Known Member
It was 'put under sin,' IMO, because mankind was given the ability to choose.
In any situation where a choice is possible, at least one choice will be optimum ..."the best,' or at least 'the better' choice. All other choices will be lesser. In other words, 'evil.' Which choice that is can vary according to opinion, of course.
As long as there is the ability to choose, someone will make the very worst, or most harmful, choice. That's what comes of the ability TO choose, and if human history has shown us anything, it has certainly shown us that.
The solution is individual; repent of our bad choices, learn to make better ones, and grow.
..........oh, and if you believe as I do, have faith that Jesus Christ has made it possible for us to DO just that.
Samantha Rinne
Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
God did. Let's examine this story in context. This means we need the entire lead up.
Genesis 1 - NIV Bible - In the beginning God created the heavens and the...
Genesis 2 - NIV Bible - Thus the heavens and the earth were completed i...
Genesis 3 - NIV Bible - Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the...
These are an absurd amount of verses, so I'm going to sum this up. I will use links to provide scientific context.
Genesis 1 - NIV Bible - In the beginning God created the heavens and the...
Genesis 2 - NIV Bible - Thus the heavens and the earth were completed i...
Genesis 3 - NIV Bible - Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the...
These are an absurd amount of verses, so I'm going to sum this up. I will use links to provide scientific context.
- God exists in the beginning surrounded by Void.
- God speaks to the Void, and tells there to be Light.
- The Light of God is divided into light and darkness.
- God calls the light "day" and the dark "night". Notice this is before there actually is a sun and moon. This implies God had a means of separating time before our satellites. It also means the light/dark this passage speaks of is not necessary what we think it is.
- He separates earth from water, and then water from water, creating a vault or dome.
- He separates the rocky earth from grassy earth.
- He creates life, making it distinct from non-living.
- He separates humans from the other animals.
- He separates the rest of the week from the Sabbath.
As you can see, if you thought God wants to create world peace, or one-world government, the evidence is against it. God creates by splitting concepts to make new concepts. But this is just the beginning.
- God originally has two humans, Adam and Lilith. This happens outside canon but there are stories about it. These humans are two-sided hermaphrodites. Lilith kinda got a nasty divorce because they both wanted to be on top (that is, in the male position). So she kinda heads out, and God does a surgery while Adam is knocked out, giving Adam a sex change from intersex to male with a female outside of him (Eve).
- Adam and Eve while now separate people, live as part of an immortal world without good and evil. They decide to eat, and the world becomes tainted by good and evil, split from a neutral "okay" to "good" and "bad" things.
- They are also cast out of the Garden, separating them from the Tree of Life.
Skwim
Veteran Member
As I remember the story, it was god's punishment for all who came after A&E for the mistake A&E made. Visiting the sins of the father upon the children as it were. Fair? Hardly. But what can one expect from a deity who endorses slavery, killing one's own children, and who creates evil.
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There's no concept of sin without religion telling you what is sinful and what is not. It's god's supposed standards, therefore god is the one placing that yoke around the neck of man.
My life's been a lot less stressful and a lot happier since setting down the yoke of sin.
My life's been a lot less stressful and a lot happier since setting down the yoke of sin.
No opinion for "what?" So i didnt vote.
Sin is a religious concept and thus irrelevant to many people.
Sin is a religious concept and thus irrelevant to many people.
dianaiad
Well-Known Member
Oh, don't be silly. Are you claiming that atheists don't ever make bad choices, or choices that violate their own personal ethics, or choices that are more harmful to themselves and others than different choices would have been?
Are you under the impression that we are all predestined to do the wrong thing sometimes?
Or are you making the claim that there is no such thing as a bad decision if an atheist makes it?
Because that's what 'sin' is...doing something against one's own personal ethical standards. It doesn't matter where you get those standards from.
Not at all. First of all, I don't speak for all atheists, only myself. Secondly, I can make bad decisions and pay for the consequences of those action. Personal codes of ethics aren't the same thing as the concept of sin, though.
Type in the definition of what sin is in your search bar. In mine, it says "an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law." -god's law, which is different than the law of the land.
My personal ethics are my own. I live by them in accordance to the wellbeing of myself, those around me, and the laws of the land. The yoke of sin is a concept that only has sway over those who believe in god, as they are rules followed in accordance with god's will.
When I was religious, I thought that homosexuality was a sin. That thought shaped my views of homosexuality as something that's bad, even though I didn't really have a problem with LGBTQ folks at all. Because it was a sin, I had to oppose it.
I realize not all Christians feel that way at all in regards to homosexuality, but their concept of what sin is can still control the way they feel about other things, and that can be a harmful thing that prevents progress on a personal and societal level.
McBell
Resident Sourpuss
Sin is merely going against the will/wishes of your chosen deity.
So by the very definition of sin, those without a deity cannot sin.
That does not mean those without a deity cannot make bad choices, or make choices that violate their own personal ethic, or choices that are harmful.
Nope.
Sin has nothing to do with your own personal ethics or morals.
Sin is merely going against the will/wishes of your chosen deity.
dianaiad
Well-Known Member
OK, you define 'sin' your way. I'll define 'sin' in mine...and in the way I have been taught to define it.
The best example I can use to explain this is coffee.
If I drink coffee, I'm sinning. Why? Because it's against my religion and I promised not to.
If YOU drink coffee, you are not sinning (unless you are LDS, of course) because you didn't make the promise and it's not against your religion/personal beliefs.
If you do something *I* consider wrong, and you don't, are you sinning? No...not if you are honest about whether you think it's wrong or right.
If I do something YOU consider to be a sin...for instance, if you were an orthodox Jew and I went driving to the store on a Saturday, would I be sinning? No...but you would be, if you (as an orthodox Jew) did the same thing.
That's what sin is....one's own idea of what God wants..or one's own personal and deeply felt personal standards of behavior.
"Sin" is the action of doing something YOU think is wrong. You may do something particularly heinous, and the civil authorities might nail you for it and put you in jail...but if YOU don't think it's wrong, it's not a sin.
However, atheist, believer or not, if your personal value system is based upon, say, the "golden rule" and you do something to violate that, then you are indeed sinning, IMO....and the only cure for that is to repent, learn, and stop doing whatever that was.
...Or start doing whatever it is you were supposed to do and didn't. Whichever.
You do NOT get a free pass from dealing with your own wrong choices just because you don't believe in a deity. Your own growth and happiness here and now depend upon that.
McBell
Resident Sourpuss
Who made that claim?
I mean, besides you, just now
dianaiad
Well-Known Member
the only people who think that 'sin' has no relationship to non-believers are non-believers....and that is because they aren't thinking straight. "Sin" is about one's OWN standards...not about someone else's.
If one's standards are based upon atheism...some form of humanism, say...they are still standards. Indeed, most atheists I"ve met seem to think that they are better than theists, morally and ethically.
I would hate to think that this is because they think that because they are atheists that everything they do is just fine and dandy, and that any choice they make is a good one--BECAUSE they are atheists.
Jesus is the solution.
I say this because the theme of Jesus' teaching at Luke 4:43 was the theme of God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44.
God's kingdom government, under Christ will eliminate ' enemy death ' on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8
No more ' death ' means ' No more sin ' because it is sin that leads to death.
Bible writer James says the reason there is sin is because of wrong or bad desires at James 1:13-15.
Sinless Eve developed a wrong or bad desire and Adam went along with Eve, thus bringing sin into our world.
Satan and Adam threw a monkey wrench into that beautiful paradisical Garden of Eden from God.
If someone interrupted you while you are in your garden would you say because I was interrupted I will never go back to the garden, or rather you would go back to the garden once the interruption was over ___________
So, once the ' sin issue ' is over ( and through Jesus as King of God's Kingdom it will be over ) then by the end of Jesus' 1,000-yer reign over Earth mankind can be sinless and can gain everlasting life on Earth as originally offered to sinless Adam before his downfall.
In Scripture I find sin is either: on purpose or not, by accident or not, deliberate or not, intentional or not.
dianaiad
Well-Known Member
I can make claims. Tell me: if you make a bad choice, are you free from having to deal with the consequences of that choice?
If you were, for instance, to do what my brother's friend did to my daughter and me last night....
He turned his car (which has not been registered since 2013) on and it got away from him, dumping him on the street and plowing into my daughter's car...and causing my daughter's car to slam into the back of mine. Now his driver's license is suspended, and of course he has no insurance. He asked us to not report the accident, and that he would pay for the damages.
I don't think so. Two cars....and though both are driveable, they both need the rear bumpers replaced and my daughter is going to need a new tailpipe, at least...and the front of her car doesn't look too good from having been slammed into my car. there is NO way he could pay for the damages to either car, let alone both of them. However, my daughter and I both have uninsured coverage, and though our deductibles are going to be nasty, we WILL be able to fix what looks like several thousand bucks worth of damage.
Neither one of US could pay the whole bill for repairing our cars.
So this man, who I know is an atheist (he's argued with me about it more than once) got drunk, lost his car (it was towed) has more than one ticket from the cops...for driving on a suspended license, not having insurance, not having a registered vehicle, owing several hundred dollars of parking tickets....the only reason the cops didn't arrest him is because it's New Year's day and they are too danged busy with other idiots who have done something similar.
He made a BUNCH of bad choices. The only good one he made was....not running. He stuck around, and because of that, he's not in nearly as much trouble as he could have been. How were his choices NOT 'sin?" They caused harm; to us....and mostly, to himself. WE are going to get our cars fixed. HE is going to jail. He knew he'd messed up. He apologized for it...and if I could have fixed the car myself, I might have done so. But I can't.
And more importantly, HE can't.
He broke his own standards of behavior. He sinned...and the consequences of his doing so are going to hit him, rather hard.
So yeah, I think I can make the claim that atheists are going to have to live with the consequences of their own choices. What makes you think you won't? You honestly think that not believing in a God is a'get out of jail free' card?
Doesn't matter what anybody ELSE thinks the consequences of your actions might be in some afterlife. It matters what the consequences of your actions are here and now.
McBell
Resident Sourpuss
Wow.
All that and you failed to answer the question...
Fact is, no one in this thread made the claim you are so passionately attacking.
Another strawman dead.
Congrats.
And for the record, yes, even atheists have to suffer the consequences for their actions.
Does it make it a sin?
Nope.
Sin is going against the will/wishes of your chosen deity.