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In ancient times, did the people call God 'Jehovah'?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Anto, Nov 30, 2017.

  1. Anto

    Anto Member

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    If there is a God, His name is obviously Jehovah (search up 'The Septuagint' and 'Dead Sea Scrolls' if you disagree), but in ancient times (i.e. before and after Jesus) did Christians openly worship God as 'Jehovah' or just 'God'?
     
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  2. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Originally Abraham, Issac and Jacob spoke to someone just called El, which translates as God singular...

    Then Moses is told (Exodus 6:2-3) that El shall now be known as Yah-Havah (H3050 - H1943/H1933), which means Lord to Be.

    Then Isaiah 12:2 is told that YHVH shall become Yeshua; where his full name Yehoshua means Lord that Saves.

    Thus God doesn't have a name in many religions; they're almost all descriptors that I'm aware of.

    Now having had a NDE, in Heaven you have to recognize that the whole of reality is manifest by the God Most High, sort of like a CPU processing reality; so if it is every sound in existence, how can one name suffice?

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
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  3. Kapalika

    Kapalika Well-Known Member
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    Speaking just for the Abrahamic God;

    No, because there isn't any J sound in Hebrew.

    I'm sure the earliest Christians, considering themselves Jewish, probably followed the customs of their day regarding what to call their God. So uh, I would say at the very least they would then go by actual Hebrew pronunciations not ones mangled from going through intermediary languages in their transliteration.

    I personally think the most accurate translation is the Aramaic pronunciation Yahweh (from YHWH). Jehovah comes from changing the Y to a J (a common thing for some reason, when people translate Hebrew to English probably due to some shanagins due to the English version actually coming from Latin or Greek or something, I ain't no expert in etymology so don't shoot me) and then... the W to a V. Not sure on why but it seems to be a common thing as well.

    It's a little tricky tho as they weren't really supposed to say his full name IIRC (or something along those lines). So they might of just called him "Lord" or some other such title.

    EDIT:

    In other words, I just know it wasn't "Jehovah" either way.
     
  4. RabbiO

    RabbiO הרב יונה בן זכריה

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    You are incorrect. Not only does the name Jehovah not appear in the Masoretic text, it does not appear in the DSS nor does it appear in the Septuagint.
     
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  5. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Like thought it was the other way around...

    The Hebrew alphabet has a vav sound; which in early writings was a v shape with a straight stick, more like a y; which is why hayah and havah are variations of 'to be/become'.

    Double-V, which is where the W seems to have come from, is a much later sound.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  6. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Correct me if I'm wrong (like you wouldn't do that anyway :D), but aren't there about 15 names for God in Hebrew as found in the Tanakh?
     
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  7. Yohanan ben Yaaqov

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    There is no “W” sound in either the Hebrew or Aramaic language. The word that people commonly spell “yahweh” was invented by the German “linguist” Heinrich Friedrich Wilhelm Gesenius in 1828, and originally spelt Jähweh, which would be pronounced in English – yəhvay.

    However that is not even a possible pronunciation for the 4 consonant Divine Name. There is no such thing as a silent “H” in the middle of any Hebrew word. A digraph such as “ah” can only occur at the end of a Hebrew word. Anyone who thinks that it is even possible for the Divine Name (or any other Hebrew word for that matter) to begin with the syllable “Yah” is out of his freaking mind.

    The Hebrew word – יָה – Yah, which is used 21 times in the Hebrew Scriptures is a contraction for the Tetragrammaton. It is the first letter and the last letter. Thus you are removing the “V” from “vah” The vowel connected to the initial Héy is intentionally omitted to prevent anyone from accidentally pronouncing the Divine Name.

    The word “jehova” (pronounced yehova) was invented in the middle of the Thirteenth Century CE by a Dominican Friar named Raymundus Martini. Therefore the word did not even exist until more than 1,200 years after the fictional character Yéshu haNotzri allegedly died.
     
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  8. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    waw/vav (ו)
    See, also, here.
     
    #8 Jayhawker Soule, Nov 30, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
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  9. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Huh?
     
  10. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Aren't there vowel pointed examples of YHVH, predating Martini?
     
  11. Yohanan ben Yaaqov

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    I don’t know about you, but personally, when it comes to the history of the Hebrew Language I will trust my Professor at – האוניברסטה העברית בירושׁלים – before I would trust anything from a web page created by The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Also, once again the first person to use the spelling “Waw” for the sixth letter of the Hebrew Alef-Bet was Heinrich Friedrich Wilhelm Gesenius. And as everyone knows the character “W” is pronounced “V” in German; ergo Vav.
    Niqqudot was created by the Tiberian Masoretes in the Seventh Century CE. However I find it rather difficult to believe that a Dominican Friar would have access to Sacred Jewish Texts. How does that matter anyway? The only people that are allowed to pronounce The Name are the High Priest on Yom Kippur inside the Holy of Holies, and confirmed Prophets. In Vayyiq’ra 24:16 God clearly states that anyone who pronounces The Name is to be put to death.
     
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  12. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    And I might even find myself deferring to him/her. The loyalty you express is nice -- the bigotry, not so much.

    So, now that you've attempted to impress us with the claim that you attend the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, perhaps you'll also divulge your professor's name and the text being used. Who knows, I might even swing by to say hello when the opportunity arrives.

    In the meantime, you might wish to review Wikipedia: Waw (letter), while noting that it cites הָאָקָדֶמְיָה לַלָּשׁוֹן הָעִבְרִית which

    was established by the Israeli government in 1953 as the "supreme institution for scholarship on the Hebrew language in the Hebrew University of Jerusalem of Givat Ram campus." [source]​

    Now stop posturing. It's tiresome.
     
    #12 Jayhawker Soule, Nov 30, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2017
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  13. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    FWIW

    "Names of God in Judaism

    Seven Names of God

    YHWH
    El
    Eloah
    Elohim
    Elohai
    El Shaddai
    Tzevaot
    Jah​

    Other names and titles

    Adonai
    Adoshem
    Baal
    Ehyeh asher ehyeh
    Elah
    El Roi
    Elyon
    Eternal One
    HaShem
    Shalom
    Shekhinah​

    The name of God used most often in the Hebrew Bible is the Tetragrammaton YHWH (Hebrew: י | ה | ו | ה‎). It is frequently anglicized as Jehovah and Yahweh"
    source

    .
     
  14. Kapalika

    Kapalika Well-Known Member
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    I dunno what's with the others not discussing/debating what he was called during the time period the OP asked about. If he was called El long before that or whatever isn't relevant.

    At least I'm enjoying learning a bit' more from the Jewish posters about the w and v thing. Though I was hoping someone would give a little more of a definitive explanation of what they would of called him and how it was probably pronounced.
     
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  15. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Given ...
    it's rather hard to know just what time period is imagined since
    • "before and after Jesus" pretty much covers all of human history,
    • there were no Christians "before ... Jesus," and
    • the advent of the Common Era is hardly "ancient times."
    ..., i.e., given that the OP is incoherent.

    That said, two questions have to be addressed (and can only be provisionally answered).

    The first is the Paleo-Hebrew/Biblical Hebrew pronunciation of the letter waw/vav. To what has been noted above can be added the following from the Jewish Encyclopedia:

    WAW: Sixth letter of the Hebrew alphabet. The name possibly means "nail" or "hook," and the shape of the letter in the Phonician alphabet bears some resemblance to a hook. "Waw" is a labial spirant, identical in sound with the English "w." When preceded by the labial vowel "u," it blends with it ("uw"), the result being a long u-sound; and when an a-vowel precedes it, the two form the diphthong "au," which in Hebrew has passed into "o." At the beginning of a word (a position it rarely has in Hebrew) "waw" retains its consonantal value, except when followed by פ, נ, מ, or a letter with simple "shewa." As the first letter of verb-stems it has been replaced in Hebrew almost everywhere by "yod." As a numeral (in the later period) "waw" has the value of 6.​

    The second deals with the pronunciation of the tetragrammaton (יהוה). For this, see Wikipedia:Yahweh, but also note the section on the Leningrad Codex and its reference to Genesis 3:14.

    One final point -- one which is, from my perspective, important ...

    I love Shaw's Pygmalion, and My Fair Lady is a wonderful musical. To quote again from Wikipedia:

    On a rainy night in Edwardian London, opera patrons are waiting under the arches of Covent Garden for cabs. Eliza Doolittle, a Cockney flower girl, runs into a young man called Freddy. She admonishes him for spilling her bunches of violets in the mud, but she cheers up after selling one to an older gentleman. She then flies into an angry outburst when a man copying down her speech is pointed out to her. The man explains that he studies phonetics and can identify anyone's origin by their accent. He laments Eliza's dreadful speech, asking why so many English people don't speak properly and explaining his theory that this is what truly separates social classes, rather than looks or money ("Why Can't the English?"). He declares that in six months he could turn Eliza into a lady by teaching her to speak properly. The older gentleman introduces himself as Colonel Pickering, a linguist who has studied Indian dialects. The phoneticist introduces himself as Henry Higgins, and, as they both have always wanted to meet each other, Higgins invites Pickering to stay at his home in London. He distractedly throws his change into Eliza's basket, and she and her friends wonder what it would be like to live a comfortable, proper life ("Wouldn't It Be Loverly?").​

    Canaan/Israel was in many ways melting pot. Pronunciation almost certainly differed from place to place and from time to time. To fetishize the pronunciation of a name is, in my opinion, silly at best.

    There is good reason to believe that the struggle for monotheism began early in Israel's history, championed by a sect that entered Canaan from the south and became its defining force. Israel's God was (and is) YHWH.
     
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  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Obviously his name was not "Jehovah" as this is the Anglicized translation of the Tetragrammaton found in the KJV and the ASV. The transliteration, "Yahweh" is accepted by many. The difference being that one is a translation (retaining the meaning of the name) and the other was an attempt to copy the way the original name sounded in Hebrew. (losing the meaning in English)

    Too many people are so busy quibbling over the pronunciation of God's name, that they lose the importance of using it.
    Don't we have to ask why was it's pronunciation lost in the first place? Because 'men' decided at some point in history, not to utter it....the reason does not matter. (it would be a justification at best) There is no command by God to refrain from using the name that he himself gave to his people.

    Exodus 3:15...."And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations." (ASV)

    "And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation." (The Complete Jewish Bible)

    How does the Jewish Bible convey the true meaning of what God said to Moses?

    The Tetragrammaton is seen in the text of the Jewish scriptures some 7,000 times, revealing that the writers had no compunction about the reverent use of God's name in the whole period when the scriptures were being penned. It was well after the completion of the Hebrew writings that men took it upon themselves to stop saying it when it appeared in their scripture, followed by the substitution of it with his titles in their written texts.

    Don't we have to ask why God allowed those who were identified with his name to lose it?

    For example....
    1 Samuel 17:42-47 is the account of David and Goliath.
    "45 Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a javelin: but I come to thee in the name of Jehovah of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied.” (ASV)

    "And David said to the Philistine, "You come to me with sword, spear and javelin, and I come to you with the Name of the Lord of Hosts, the God of the armies of Israel which you have taunted." (The Complete Jewish Bible)

    David did not conquer the giant in the name of "the Lord of Hosts" he came in the name of "Jehovah of Hosts".
    A nameless "Lord" would have been no different than coming in the name of Baal. (Lord)

    Part two follows.....
     
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  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Did the First Christians Use God’s Name?

    During the days of Jesus’ apostles in the first century C.E., Christian congregations were formed in many lands. The members of those congregations regularly met together to study the Scriptures. Did those early Christians find Jehovah’s name in their copies of the Scriptures?


    Since Greek had become the international language, many congregations used the Greek Septuagint, a translation of the Hebrew Scriptures completed in the second century B.C.E. Some scholars claim that from the time it was originally translated, the Septuagint had always replaced God’s name with the title Kyʹri·os, the Greek word for “Lord.” But the facts show otherwise.


    The fragments illustrated here are portions of the Greek Septuagint that date from the first century B.C.E. They clearly show Jehovah’s name, represented in the Greek text by the four Hebrew letters יהוה (YHWH), or the Tetragrammaton. Professor George Howard wrote: “We have three separate pre-Christian copies of the Greek Septuagint Bible and in not a single instance is the Tetragrammaton translated kyrios or for that matter translated at all. We can now say with near certainty that it was a Jewish practice before, during, and after the New Testament period to write the divine name . . . right into the Greek text of Scripture.”—Biblical Archaeology Review.


    Did Jesus’ apostles and disciples use God’s name in their inspired writings? Professor Howard notes: “When the Septuagint which the New Testament church used and quoted contained the Hebrew form of the divine name, the New Testament writers no doubt included the Tetragrammaton in their quotations.”


    Therefore, we may safely conclude that the first Christians could read God’s name both in their translations of the Hebrew Scriptures and in their copies of the Christian Greek Scriptures.


    The Challenge of Knowing God by Name — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
     
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  18. Wendywee

    Wendywee New Member

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  19. Wendywee

    Wendywee New Member

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    Hi , I would like to help answer that question. Yes his name was openly used . At some point superstitious idea among the Jews felt that it was wrong to pronounce Jehovah's name. Which is represented by the Tetragrammaton. What bases for it to stop is not known
     
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  20. Wendywee

    Wendywee New Member

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    Hi, I would like to help answer that question. . Jehovah name was used regularly, at some point some felt that it was to sacred to speak it. But the Hebrew Scriptures themselves give no evidence that true servants ever felt that they should stop using Jehovah's name. In the Bible Jehovah himself said that he would have 'his name declared in all the earth.'Exodus 9:16 ; 1Chronicles 16:23,24; Psalm 113:3;Malachi1:11. His name was also to be known by his enemies or adversaries Isaiah 64:2. .to further answer your question please go to the website JW.org. Scroll down to the bottom you will see on there Watchtower Online Library type in Jehovah's name you will find a lot of reliable information..Please explore JW.org .
     
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