In accordance with the scriptures?????

[IndigoChild5559]

Considered heretics? By whom? And more importantly, why? That is really the important question. Anyway, as I said, it took time for me to realize what the Bible (specifically the Tanach) was saying about the appearance of the Messiah.

Judaism has its heresy just like any other religion. Continuing to believe someone is the messiah after they have died and shown that they have failed at the messianic mission, is incompatible with Judaism.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I know quite well that many Jews eat treyf, or non-kosher foods.

And I know many Christians who have been married multiple times.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I would suggest you take this up with one of the many Jews in the forum who are highly knowledgable about the Talmud..

There is no need. That is like beating a dead horse. Certain christians have been trying to use the Talmud Jesus trick for close to a 1,000 years to no effect. Just refer them to this and let's just all move on with life:

 

[Bree]

This simply looks to the general resurrection, not to the messiah coming back from the dead in a separate event.

Again, refers to the general resurrection, and not to any separate resurrection event by the messiah.

The "one like unto a son of man" refers to the nation of Israel, not to the messiah.

[/QUOTE]

Daniel says of the son of man.....
Daniel 7:14 And to him there were given rulership,+ honor,+ and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him.+ His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.+

This is not simply about a general resurrection of people... its about the resurrection of the Messiah who was taken up into heaven to sit at Gods right hand.

Jesus IS the resurrection
John 11: 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life.+ The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life

The followers of Christ were Jews and they interpreted these things in this way because that is how God revealed the truth to them. The truth of the meaning of scriputures come by the mouth of Jesus christ the Messiah. He is the Word of God and the one whom God speaks through. And if anyone is wise they will take that to heart and start listening to the right source.

Moses instructions to the isrealites was that a new prophet would arise and that is the one you must listen to
Deut 18:15 Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to him...18 I will raise up for them from the midst of their brothers a prophet like you,+ and I will put my words in his mouth,+ and he will speak to them all that I command him.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I am admittedly not a Talmud head. But I know that the Talmud records positions that were ultimately rejected. You can't simply quote something from the Talmud and say "This is what Judaism teaches." I would suggest you take this up with one of the many Jews in the forum who are highly knowledgable about the Talmud.

I can tell you, based on having been taught, that Zarehariah 12 is not messianic. Some time in the future, during the Gog magog war, a highly beloved Jew will be pierced, aka killed. His mourning by all of israel will be so extreme that the People will return to faithfulness to the Law.

But the most important thing to note about Zechariah 12:10 is that it doesn't mention anyone coming back from the dead. My question to you was what prophecy there is of the messiah coming back from the dead, and you answer by giving me a verse that has NO MENTION OF THIS. I'm wondering if you are understanding basic English.

Alfred Edersheim lists the passages of scripture that have been messianically applied in rabbinic writings (including the Talmud). He does not state that it is the only opinion, as his quotation makes clear. But the fact that some rabbis believed the passage to be messianic undermines your argument that there are no Jews who believe it has a messianic application.

In my opinion, it's important to see the coherence and consistency that exists in all of scripture. Giving Zechariah a meaning that has no connection to other passages of scripture demonstrates the failure of the exegete to comprehend the interconnectedness of the books of prophecy. This is understandable if you don't believe the Bible to be a revelation of God, but unacceptable if you believe that God has a clear and consistent message.

There would be no need for a Redeemer if man was not in need of redemption. Job said, 'I know that my Redeemer liveth'. Psalm 19 says, 'O Lord, my strength and my Redeemer'. Isaiah says, 'thus saith the Lord, his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts'. Jeremiah says, 'their Redeemer is strong, the Lord of hosts'.

It is God who comes to earth to pay the price for sin. A sinful man (and ALL men have sinned) cannot redeem himself. The eternal payment for sin must be made by the righteousness of God. The ritual sacrifices for sin, made under the law, are a temporary measure on earth, and they do not satisfy the conditions of God's heavenly and eternal kingdom.

The reason that death and resurrection is central to the mission of the Messiah (aka Son of Joseph) is that, through a sinless man's death, an acceptable payment is made for sin. The obstacle that stands in the way of DOING God's will is removed by God himself. Through faith in the Messiah, the righteousness of God on earth, God's Holy Spirit is poured out on believers.

Jews living under the law do not know the Holy Spirit. In Zechariah 12:10 the Holy Spirit is poured out on the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Why? Because in the moment God saves them from the nations that come against Jerusalem, they will know and trust in Jesus Christ as their Saviour. How will they recognise him? Because they will see him; 'and they shall look upon him whom they have pierced'.

A man who is pierced and killed does not come back from the dead without first being resurrected. Jesus was resurrected from the dead, and ascended to heaven, there to await the time of his coming again in glory. This is what Zechariah 12 talks about. And in Zechariah 13:1 it says, 'In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and uncleanness.'

 

[1213]

... many laws far beyond the 10 Commandments on stone.

Please give one example and explain why it is a law?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Please give one example and explain why it is a law?

It's called Halakha. This includes their dietary restrictions, as well as prohibitions against tattoos. It is the law because it is the law given to them by their Lord who delivered them from Egypt and made his Covenants with them.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Daniel says of the son of man.....
Daniel 7:14 And to him there were given rulership,+ honor,+ and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him.+ His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.+

This is not simply about a general resurrection of people... its about the resurrection of the Messiah who was taken up into heaven to sit at Gods right hand.

You apprently didn't read my former reply. Please pay attention. The "one like unto the son of man" is not the messiah, but the People of Israel. Daniel begins by saying there is this animal which is this nation, and that animal which is that nation. So the context is that he is giving symbols which are applicable to nations. Thus when goes into "one like unto a son of man" the best question to ask is "which nation." The answer is obvious.

Jesus IS the resurrection
John 11: 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life.+ The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life

It is really not necessary for me to deal with anything in the New Testament, firstly, because the New testament is not part of MY Bible, and secondly because the idea is to look for prophecies about the messiah rising from the dead in the Tanakh (OT).

Moses instructions to the isrealites was that a new prophet would arise and that is the one you must listen to
Deut 18:15 Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to him...18 I will raise up for them from the midst of their brothers a prophet like you,+ and I will put my words in his mouth,+ and he will speak to them all that I command him.

First of all, this prophecy is about Moses' successor, Joshua, NOT the messiah. But at any rate it says NOTHING about him rising from the dead.

You have so far quoted six verses taht have nothing to do with the messiah rising from the dead. It is clear that you have no verses that meet that requirement. If you respond with more verses that have nothing to do with the messiah rising from the dead, I'm simply going to ignore you.[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[Rival]

Please give one example and explain why it is a law?

Have you read the Torah at all? The laws continue after the ones on the tablets. It starts talking about slavery laws.

 

[Shaul]

Well, I never understood why followers of Rabbinic Judaism believe that God will send them an earthly king to rule over the land of Israel as the end plan when that is obviously not what He wanted for them in the first place:
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Samuel 8 - Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition

The Major Prophets in the OT seem to have something much more cosmic in mind, which Christianity recognizes.

Probably because that is what the scriptures say.

 

[Bree]

You apprently didn't read my former reply. Please pay attention. The "one like unto the son of man" is not the messiah, but the People of Israel. Daniel begins by saying there is this animal which is this nation, and that animal which is that nation. So the context is that he is giving symbols which are applicable to nations. Thus when goes into "one like unto a son of man" the best question to ask is "which nation." The answer is obvious.

Yes, i did read it, but I dont believe the idea that it is a 'nation' who is brought up close to God is accurate. Are you saying every isrealite is going to be resurrected to heaven to sit at Gods right hand? Because the prophecy shows that the ruler must reside with God in heaven to rule. How do you explain that without a resurrection taking place??

It is really not necessary for me to deal with anything in the New Testament, firstly, because the New testament is not part of MY Bible, and secondly because the idea is to look for prophecies about the messiah rising from the dead in the Tanakh (OT).
First of all, this prophecy is about Moses' successor, Joshua, NOT the messiah. But at any rate it says NOTHING about him rising from the dead.
You have so far quoted six verses taht have nothing to do with the messiah rising from the dead. It is clear that you have no verses that meet that requirement. If you respond with more verses that have nothing to do with the messiah rising from the dead, I'm simply going to ignore you.

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

fair enough, apologies for that

However, you did ask why Christians say the Messiah was to be resurrected. We use the explanations of the Jews back in Jesus day who took a different view to your jewish teachers of today.

You know there is a say about jews (and i can say this because my grandfather was a jew )
"If you put 3 jews in a room, you'll get 4 different opinions"

And aint that the truth! Even in Jesus day there were serveral different schools of thought among the jews. The pharisees believed in the resurrection but the Sadducees did not. They all sat in the same Sanhedrin worshiping the same God under the same high priest and yet they believed totally different things about the same scriptures.

So many different teachers today, so many different ideas. How do you know which one to believe??

 

[ppp]

So many different teachers today, so many different ideas. How do you know which one to believe??

Must one believe any?

 

[cataway]

Must one believe any?

considering God's track record, yes .

 

[ppp]

considering God's track record, yes .

If none are true, then there is no track record.

 

[cataway]

If none are true, then there is no track record.

oh there is one true God . many ,many false gods. the true one would have a specific way he will except things , he has standards. if people are out side of that standard. its then a violation , he has no reason to acknowledge them

 

[cataway]

And I know many Christians who have been married multiple times.

as have i .yet they took a vow to be devoted to that one person that they would remain with them for the rest of there lives. which time did they lie?

 

[ppp]

oh there is one true God . many ,many false gods. the true one would have a specific way he will except things , he has standards. if people are out side of that standard. its then a violation , he has no reason to acknowledge them

You are confused as to what I was saying. Even if there is a one true god, all of the teachers could be wrong.

 

[cataway]

You are confused as to what I was saying. Even if there is a one true god, all of the teachers could be wrong.

and for the most point they would be wrong.why? because people want to believe what they want to believe

 

[lukethethird]

oh there is one true God . many ,many false gods. the true one would have a specific way he will except things , he has standards. if people are out side of that standard. its then a violation , he has no reason to acknowledge them

Yours is the true God, all those other Gods are stupid ignoramuses' but not your God, your God is real.

 

[lukethethird]

and for the most point they would be wrong.why? because people want to believe what they want to believe

But not you, you wouldn't believe what you want to believe, your beliefs are real.