In accordance with the scriptures?????

[Brickjectivity]

Please quote the verse(s) in Ezekiel 37 that spell out that the messiah will come back from the dead

I have not claimed Ezekiel spells out what this Nicene creed says, so please do not think so. I am attempting to explain the creed appears to be non literal, and I feel like I have already claimed that several times in the thread. I feel I have established that this is similar to usages in the Christian gospels. Remember we are talking about the creed, and you have said something like "Nothing in the Tanach says this" etc., but this creed refers to something in the Tanach or nothing at all. The only possibility is that it refers to Ezekiel 37 in a non literal way, so a direct quote is not going to spell out anything to either of us.

 

[1213]

How can that be the case when most Christians do not know how or when to observe the Laws? Especially considering Christians are the Abrahamics without a dietary code?

When God made covenant through Moses, it had the ten Commandments as the law.

Yahweh said to Moses, "Write you these words: for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." He was there with Yahweh forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread, nor drank water. He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Exodus 34:27-28

I think the same is with the new Covenant. That leads to question, what about the other rules? They were not included in the stone tablets; therefore, I think it is possible that they are not included in the new covenant. But, because that may be unclear, I would think, what are the other commandments and are they good. If they are good, no reason to reject them. If they are not good, I would like to know why. If no good reason to think they are not good, I would recommend to keep them.

The dietary code is basically, don’t eat anything unclean. I think that is a good rule and I don’t see any good reason to reject it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The dietary code is basically, don’t eat anything unclean. I think that is a good rule and I don’t see any good reason to reject it.

Many of the unclean animals are safe to eat. I eat copious amounts of shrimp, and rabbit stew is pretty common where people have to relly on hunting to eat. Amd, of course Jews and Muslims don't eat pork but Christians devour it.
Amd keep in mind, Yahweh made multiple covenants and there are many, many laws far beyond the 10 Commandments on stone.

 

[YoursTrue]

When God made covenant through Moses, it had the ten Commandments as the law.

Yahweh said to Moses, "Write you these words: for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." He was there with Yahweh forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread, nor drank water. He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Exodus 34:27-28

I think the same is with the new Covenant. That leads to question, what about the other rules? They were not included in the stone tablets; therefore, I think it is possible that they are not included in the new covenant. But, because that may be unclear, I would think, what are the other commandments and are they good. If they are good, no reason to reject them. If they are not good, I would like to know why. If no good reason to think they are not good, I would recommend to keep them.

The dietary code is basically, don’t eat anything unclean. I think that is a good rule and I don’t see any good reason to reject it.

And when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they themselves gathered together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested Him with a question: 36“Teacher, which commandment is the greatest in the Law?”37Jesus declared, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’e 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

 

[Bree]

The Nicene Creed states of Jesus: "For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures."

My problem is, there is absolutely nothing in the Tanakh that states the Messiah will come back to life. Where are Christians getting this?

Psalm 16:10
For you will not leave me in* the Grave.*+You will not allow your loyal one to see the pit.*+

Psalm 49:15
But God will redeem me* from the power* of the Grave,*+
For he will take hold of me. (Selah)

Daniel 7 13 “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man+ was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days,+ and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership,+ honor,+ and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him.+ His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.+

 

[cataway]

Many of the unclean animals are safe to eat. I eat copious amounts of shrimp, and rabbit stew is pretty common where people have to relly on hunting to eat. Amd, of course Jews and Muslims don't eat pork but Christians devour it.
Amd keep in mind, Yahweh made multiple covenants and there are many, many laws far beyond the 10 Commandments on stone.

safe to eat "IF"! if its cooked correctly . eating raw pork is not good . not as bad as it once was ,at least in the USA,.there is a factor of pork that people that have cancer, or are prone due to genetics, to get cancer should not eat pork

 

[Redemptionsong]

What verse in Zechariah 12:9-14 specifically says that the Messiah will come back from the dead? Please quote it for us. Thanks.

'Zechariah 12:10 is applied to the Messiah the Son of Joseph in the Talmud (Sukk.52 a) and so is verse 12, there being, however, a difference of opinion whether the mourning is caused by the death of the Messiah the Son of Joseph, or else on account of the evil concupiscence (Yetser haRa).' [Edersheim]

If one believes that the Tanakh is the Word of God, as I do, then one has to view these scriptures as authored by God and not by man. This means that time does not obscure the repeated truths that appear throughout the various books of scripture. One such truth, to my understanding, is that the Messiah, Son of Joseph (the Suffering Servant), would die for the sins of both Jew and Gentile alike (if they be his friends). It is no surprise that Jesus said, 'Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends', for, indeed, this is what Jesus did for his friends. And anyone can be his friend if they accept Jesus' words and actions as truth.

Based on this reasoning, that Christ is the focus of God's redemptive plan, we read that Jesus called out 'My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me' whilst hanging on the cross [Matthew 27:46]. This is, as you well know, the opening of Psalm 22. Jesus quoted these words to draw peoples' attention to the whole Psalm, which graphically portrays the death of a man after 'piercing' (like a lion tearing at his hands and feet). Yet, rather than being forsaken by God, the man finds salvation in God. To find salvation means that he does not forever descend into the grave, but is brought forth in resurrection, as we read in Psalm 23.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

safe to eat "IF"! if its cooked correctly . eating raw pork is not good . not as bad as it once was ,at least in the USA,.there is a factor of pork that people that have cancer, or are prone due to genetics, to get cancer should not eat pork

It's more the point eating unclean animals is no more safe or dangerous than clean animals. Proper storage, handling, and cooking are crucial for either.

 

[ppp]

safe to eat "IF"! if its cooked correctly .

Isn't that true of all meats? Even lamb you should sear the outside to prevent infections from surface bacteria like e coli. Or treat chemically.

 

[alypius]

The Nicene Creed states of Jesus: "For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures."

My problem is, there is absolutely nothing in the Tanakh that states the Messiah will come back to life. Where are Christians getting this?

What if the claim is based on the testimony of trustworthy witnesses?

 

[YoursTrue]

It's more the point eating unclean animals is no more safe or dangerous than clean animals. Proper storage, handling, and cooking are crucial for either.

Either way, it was a separation. And as we know, when the blanket with forbidden foods was lowered in a vision to Peter, he was told to eat. So that made it open for both Jews and non-Jews to eat. Acts chapter 10 has the account. Peter was also to speak to the "nations." Gentiles.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Either way, it was a separation. And as we know, when the blanket with forbidden foods was lowered in a vision to Peter, he was told to eat. So that made it open for both Jews and non-Jews to eat. Acts chapter 10 has the account. Peter was also to speak to the "nations." Gentiles.

It's not open to Jews. Jesus said he did not come away to do with the Laws and Prophets and warned against teaching they have been lessened. It's open to Gentiles as it always has been because we weren't a part of those Covenants between Yahweh and the Hebrews.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

It always interests me when I learn what the Jewish beliefs actually are, and just how much Christianity has caricaturized and bastardized what Judaism is. And fascinating how just a little of corrective knowledge can dramatically change what's going on in the OT. Like Job. More or less the same words, but two totally different stories depending on Satan's role in it. And probably the most dramatic change is Genesis and Exodus, going from a Christian understanding and expectation of total, unquestioned obedience to Jehovah to the idea of Arguing with God and adding layers and depths of humanity to the story that Christianity tends to shy away from.

Right.

You also have to factor in the fact than when Jews are talking about the Tanakh the most ancient Hebrew texts passed down throughout Jewish families for thousands of years is the source material where for most Christians snippets of Christian produced translations of their OT with NT goggles is their source. A large percentage of Jews have complete access to the Hebrew of the Tanakh and an entire nation that exists of Jews whose national language is derived from the Hebrew Tanakh. When it comes to Christians on the other hand, most of them are not taught Hebrew nor are most of them taught the Greek of their NT. So, it should obvious that neither side is coming from the same spectrum of understanding and of course neither side would come to the same conclusions.

This is why I think it doesn't really pay for Jews and Christians to get involved in a "messiah" based discussion UNLESS both sides start with their individual source material. i.e. Hebrew text for Jews and for Christians translations of their OT with NT goggles is their source. Within about 10 minutes it will be clear that both sides are not speaking the same language. I think more than anything else for Jews the discussion/debate is a waste of time unless the goal is to show why the debate is meaningless at the end of the day and neither side gains anything from it.

Besides, it is not like Jews and Christians have the same meaning for the English word messiah to begin with.

 

[YoursTrue]

It's not open to Jews. Jesus said he did not come away to do with the Laws and Prophets and warned against teaching they have been lessened. It's open to Gentiles as it always has been because we weren't a part of those Covenants between Yahweh and the Hebrews.

I know quite well that many Jews eat treyf, or non-kosher foods.

 

[lukethethird]

I know quite well that many Jews eat treyf, or non-kosher foods.

No way.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What if the claim is based on the testimony of trustworthy witnesses?

None of the gospels were written by eyewitnesses.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

'Zechariah 12:10 is applied to the Messiah the Son of Joseph in the Talmud (Sukk.52 a) and so is verse 12, there being, however, a difference of opinion whether the mourning is caused by the death of the Messiah the Son of Joseph, or else on account of the evil concupiscence (Yetser haRa).' [Edersheim]

If one believes that the Tanakh is the Word of God, as I do, then one has to view these scriptures as authored by God and not by man. This means that time does not obscure the repeated truths that appear throughout the various books of scripture. One such truth, to my understanding, is that the Messiah, Son of Joseph (the Suffering Servant), would die for the sins of both Jew and Gentile alike (if they be his friends). It is no surprise that Jesus said, 'Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends', for, indeed, this is what Jesus did for his friends. And anyone can be his friend if they accept Jesus' words and actions as truth.

Based on this reasoning, that Christ is the focus of God's redemptive plan, we read that Jesus called out 'My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me' whilst hanging on the cross [Matthew 27:46]. This is, as you well know, the opening of Psalm 22. Jesus quoted these words to draw peoples' attention to the whole Psalm, which graphically portrays the death of a man after 'piercing' (like a lion tearing at his hands and feet). Yet, rather than being forsaken by God, the man finds salvation in God. To find salvation means that he does not forever descend into the grave, but is brought forth in resurrection, as we read in Psalm 23.

I am admittedly not a Talmud head. But I know that the Talmud records positions that were ultimately rejected. You can't simply quote something from the Talmud and say "This is what Judaism teaches." I would suggest you take this up with one of the many Jews in the forum who are highly knowledgable about the Talmud.

I can tell you, based on having been taught, that Zarehariah 12 is not messianic. Some time in the future, during the Gog magog war, a highly beloved Jew will be pierced, aka killed. His mourning by all of israel will be so extreme that the People will return to faithfulness to the Law.

But the most important thing to note about Zechariah 12:10 is that it doesn't mention anyone coming back from the dead. My question to you was what prophecy there is of the messiah coming back from the dead, and you answer by giving me a verse that has NO MENTION OF THIS. I'm wondering if you are understanding basic English.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Psalm 16:10
For you will not leave me in* the Grave.*+You will not allow your loyal one to see the pit.*+

This simply looks to the general resurrection, not to the messiah coming back from the dead in a separate event.

Psalm 49:15
But God will redeem me* from the power* of the Grave,*+
For he will take hold of me. (Selah)

Again, refers to the general resurrection, and not to any separate resurrection event by the messiah.

Daniel 7 13 “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man+ was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days,+ and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership,+ honor,+ and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him.+ His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.+

The "one like unto a son of man" refers to the nation of Israel, not to the messiah.



[/QUOTE]

 

[kaninchen]

This is why I think it doesn't really pay for Jews and Christians to get involved in a "messiah" based discussion UNLESS both sides start with their individual source material. i.e. Hebrew text for Jews and for Christians translations of their OT with NT goggles is their source.

It's more than that though, for Christians 'Proof Texts' are about establishing belief in their scripture/reportage where for Jews, for whom the NT is neither scripture nor reportage, it's just 'lit crit'.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Now of course Maimonides did teach and believe in 'a' resurrection, did he not? But of course I don't think it was aligned with the 2nd appearance of the Messiah. A very interesting concept. Anyway, have a nice evening.

The general resurrection happens for all humanity at the end of the world. It has not happened yet. IF Jesus rose from the dead (I don't think so) it would be a separate event, one that would need to be referred to specifically.