• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Impossible human situations (The Abortion Issue)

Mark Dohle

Well-Known Member


Impossible human situations
(The Abortion Issue)

The abortion question is divisive, and I approach it with a certain level of fear and trembling. It is not a simple matter at all. I have friends who are pro-choice. They focus on the mother, her plight, and wish to protect women from procedures that are illegal and perhaps a threat to their lives. I do believe that abortion is not something that will ever go away. However, there are deep moral implications when it comes to this subject.

I do know that the demographics on those who get abortions are across the board when it comes to religious affiliation. So that needs to be understood.

2006: The Center for Reason: Responding to a claim by some conservative Christian leaders that abortion is an evil perpetrated by non-Christians, the Center -- a private research group -- decided to conduct a study to determine whether Christians have fewer abortions per capita than do non-Christians. They determined that Christians have as many abortions per capita than do non-Christians. They analyzed state-by-state data -- perhaps from the CDC -- and found that the rate of abortion is the same in the most Christian segments of the population as it is in the least-Christian. However, the most highly Catholic segments of the nation showed significantly higher abortion rates.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_fact4.htm

I do believe, and being a Catholic, and this will not surprise anyone that life needs to be protected from the moment of conception to natural death. Just because I believe that does not mean others do, and it does nothing to stop abortion. For abortion to stop, the changes in our cultural needed to accomplish that, would transform everything, both in how we treat each other, do business, and how we actually care for the elderly and the very young. The trends at this time seem to be going in the other direction. It would be like the ‘Ten Commandments’ would actually have to be taken seriously and lived out in a mindful and thoughtful manner in order to reverse the trend.

I do know that yelling at others or condemning them (which we are commanded not to do) only makes matters worse. The issue is complicated and the fruit that is produced is often bitter and not life-affirming at all.

Many women come to our retreat house and talk about having an abortion. Many of these poor women have to go through the reminder of how old their child would be if allowed to reach birth. It is heartbreaking. Yet, at the time of their abortion, many were alone, abandoned by their boyfriends, and even families. Some came from families, who were practicing members of a church, who pressured them so much that they got the abortion. Not all abortions are made freely but actually bullied into it……by Christians. I am not saying this to point fingers, but bring to light the deep changes that need to be made by Christian on this issue.

I have also met men who mourn over abortion, because even though they wanted the child and to taking care of it, the abortion was still performed. Some marriages ended over this issue.

We have problems in every area of our society. This goes for the Church’s, our government, and in our families. It is not just about sexual abuse, which seems to be rampant, but about seeking the dignity present in every human being, which from the way we treat one another, seems to be lacking. I do not believe things will get better in this country, but only worse, until, hopefully, we will come to a point where we will all wake up, and that includes people like me. I do have blind spots like everyone else, some of them serious ones. We are all called to conversion, which is not a onetime event, but an ongoing process that continues until we die.

I live in hope, my faith leads me to that. However, that does not mean that we are not moving towards a future that will be become more tumultuous as time moves forward. So, for Christians, and all people who seek God, we need to on a more conscious level, live out our faith, and love others, not hate, or scream. But speak gently and with love. We believers can be our own worst enemy when it comes to how we present ourselves to others.

The Human Situation

Some problems are impossible to solve,
like the Gordian Knot,
so turned in on itself that it can’t be untied,
so I am powerless to change anyone,
or any situation that affects so many,
yet I can still not hate, or judge, or shower with contempt
those who disagree with me
about what I believe, or my faith,
even if they do so with hatred and contempt.


Each life is seen only by God to the very depth of soul,
I see the surface, so I am told to not judge,
to judge is to be blinded by a false light.
Judgment, which is absolute truth
comes only from God,
perhaps we will all be surprised by what that implies
and will silence all the clamorous interaction. —Br.MD

 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
And, by the same token, I am sure that there are many women who do not come to your retreat that do not have the same regrets as those you see. Also, many men who probably have no feelings on the matter one way or another ( and probably many who may not have any inkling that there was a fetus). I believe an abortion should be between a woman, her doctor, and her conscience and no one else. This takes all the guess work out of the equation.
 

Mark Dohle

Well-Known Member
And, by the same token, I am sure that there are many women who do not come to your retreat that do not have the same regrets as those you see. Also, many men who probably have no feelings on the matter one way or another ( and probably many who may not have any inkling that there was a fetus). I believe an abortion should be between a woman, her doctor, and her conscience and no one else. This takes all the guess work out of the equation.
The problem with the after affects about abortion is more wide spead than many believe. Yes there are many who have no problem, yet I do believe that the life in the womb does have 'rights', it is its extistence that is being decided upon by others. The life in the womb is the most vunerable 'victim' in the world, and the most abused, along with children, women, etc.

Abortion, the cultural acceptance of it, ls on the same lane as slavery was in the past. One day it will change, and our era will be looked on with horror I believe.......if we make it of course.

thanks for you comment.

Peace
mark
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member


Impossible human situations
(The Abortion Issue)

The abortion question is divisive, and I approach it with a certain level of fear and trembling. It is not a simple matter at all. I have friends who are pro-choice. They focus on the mother, her plight, and wish to protect women from procedures that are illegal and perhaps a threat to their lives. I do believe that abortion is not something that will ever go away. However, there are deep moral implications when it comes to this subject.

I do know that the demographics on those who get abortions are across the board when it comes to religious affiliation. So that needs to be understood.

2006: The Center for Reason: Responding to a claim by some conservative Christian leaders that abortion is an evil perpetrated by non-Christians, the Center -- a private research group -- decided to conduct a study to determine whether Christians have fewer abortions per capita than do non-Christians. They determined that Christians have as many abortions per capita than do non-Christians. They analyzed state-by-state data -- perhaps from the CDC -- and found that the rate of abortion is the same in the most Christian segments of the population as it is in the least-Christian. However, the most highly Catholic segments of the nation showed significantly higher abortion rates.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_fact4.htm

I do believe, and being a Catholic, and this will not surprise anyone that life needs to be protected from the moment of conception to natural death. Just because I believe that does not mean others do, and it does nothing to stop abortion. For abortion to stop, the changes in our cultural needed to accomplish that, would transform everything, both in how we treat each other, do business, and how we actually care for the elderly and the very young. The trends at this time seem to be going in the other direction. It would be like the ‘Ten Commandments’ would actually have to be taken seriously and lived out in a mindful and thoughtful manner in order to reverse the trend.

I do know that yelling at others or condemning them (which we are commanded not to do) only makes matters worse. The issue is complicated and the fruit that is produced is often bitter and not life-affirming at all.

Many women come to our retreat house and talk about having an abortion. Many of these poor women have to go through the reminder of how old their child would be if allowed to reach birth. It is heartbreaking. Yet, at the time of their abortion, many were alone, abandoned by their boyfriends, and even families. Some came from families, who were practicing members of a church, who pressured them so much that they got the abortion. Not all abortions are made freely but actually bullied into it……by Christians. I am not saying this to point fingers, but bring to light the deep changes that need to be made by Christian on this issue.

I have also met men who mourn over abortion, because even though they wanted the child and to taking care of it, the abortion was still performed. Some marriages ended over this issue.

We have problems in every area of our society. This goes for the Church’s, our government, and in our families. It is not just about sexual abuse, which seems to be rampant, but about seeking the dignity present in every human being, which from the way we treat one another, seems to be lacking. I do not believe things will get better in this country, but only worse, until, hopefully, we will come to a point where we will all wake up, and that includes people like me. I do have blind spots like everyone else, some of them serious ones. We are all called to conversion, which is not a onetime event, but an ongoing process that continues until we die.

I live in hope, my faith leads me to that. However, that does not mean that we are not moving towards a future that will be become more tumultuous as time moves forward. So, for Christians, and all people who seek God, we need to on a more conscious level, live out our faith, and love others, not hate, or scream. But speak gently and with love. We believers can be our own worst enemy when it comes to how we present ourselves to others.

The Human Situation

Some problems are impossible to solve,
like the Gordian Knot,
so turned in on itself that it can’t be untied,
so I am powerless to change anyone,
or any situation that affects so many,
yet I can still not hate, or judge, or shower with contempt
those who disagree with me
about what I believe, or my faith,
even if they do so with hatred and contempt.


Each life is seen only by God to the very depth of soul,
I see the surface, so I am told to not judge,
to judge is to be blinded by a false light.
Judgment, which is absolute truth
comes only from God,
perhaps we will all be surprised by what that implies
and will silence all the clamorous interaction. —Br.MD
Seems to me that when you pressure someone to get an abortion, stripping them of their choice, the stigma and emotional consequences are sure to follow.
Perhaps these communities (ostensibly Christian, if I understand your wording correctly) needs to practice less sex shaming tactics and offer more support to pregnant women.
Incidentally, pressuring someone into getting or not getting an abortion is distinctly against the core principle of pro choice. Give that the position favours choice.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
The problem with the after affects about abortion is more wide spead than many believe. Yes there are many who have no problem, yet I do believe that the life in the womb does have 'rights', it is its extistence that is being decided upon by others. The life in the womb is the most vunerable 'victim' in the world, and the most abused, along with children, women, etc.

Abortion, the cultural acceptance of it, ls on the same lane as slavery was in the past. One day it will change, and our era will be looked on with horror I believe.......if we make it of course.

thanks for you comment.

Peace
mark

I don't believe anything growing inside a human being has more "rights" than that person. And hold the phone! Aren't you also trying to decide the existence of the unborn fetus? This I why the decision should be up to the woman, her doctor, and he conscience; everyone else should butt out.
 

Mark Dohle

Well-Known Member
I don't believe anything growing inside a human being has more "rights" than that person. And hold the phone! Aren't you also trying to decide the existence of the unborn fetus? This I why the decision should be up to the woman, her doctor, and he conscience; everyone else should butt out.
The only way that abortion can lessen is if sociey changes on a deep level. Do not see that happening, so abortion will always be with us.

peace
Mark
 

Mark Dohle

Well-Known Member
Seems to me that when you pressure someone to get an abortion, stripping them of their choice, the stigma and emotional consequences are sure to follow.
Perhaps these communities (ostensibly Christian, if I understand your wording correctly) needs to practice less sex shaming tactics and offer more support to pregnant women.
Incidentally, pressuring someone into getting or not getting an abortion is distinctly against the core principle of pro choice. Give that the position favours choice.
I agree, less shaming, and worrying about what others think. The rest of what you said is understandable, and woman should have say so.....like I said, it is the fruit of the types of socitieswe live in, as well, in many cases, the immaturity of men.

Peace
mark
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I agree, less shaming, and worrying about what others think. The rest of what you said is understandable, and woman should have say so.....like I said, it is the fruit of the types of socitieswe live in, as well, in many cases, the immaturity of men.

Peace
mark
Oh I agree. I would argue that society itself is largely immature when it comes to such matters.
 

Mark Dohle

Well-Known Member
I don't believe anything growing inside a human being has more "rights" than that person. And hold the phone! Aren't you also trying to decide the existence of the unborn fetus? This I why the decision should be up to the woman, her doctor, and he conscience; everyone else should butt out.
The process of life starts at conception, to interfere with that, up to the end of life, is taking a life, some call it murder.

Peace
Mark
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
The only way that abortion can lessen is if sociey changes on a deep level. Do not see that happening, so abortion will always be with us.

peace
Mark

And, thank God, it's out of dirty back alley kitchens and into clean clinics with professionals in attendance.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
The process of life starts at conception, to interfere with that, up to the end of life, is taking a life, some call it murder.

Peace
Mark

So have you, or your sex partner, ever used any form of contraception to prevent a life from being formed? And murder is a legal term, not a word to justify your intrusion into someone else's life. Abortions are legal so the word murder does not apply, no matter what you feel. And who decided when life starts? According to scriptures it's when you take your first breath.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
The problem with the after affects about abortion is more wide spead than many believe. Yes there are many who have no problem, yet I do believe that the life in the womb does have 'rights', it is its extistence that is being decided upon by others. The life in the womb is the most vunerable 'victim' in the world, and the most abused, along with children, women, etc.

Abortion, the cultural acceptance of it, ls on the same lane as slavery was in the past. One day it will change, and our era will be looked on with horror I believe.......if we make it of course.

thanks for you comment.

Peace
mark
The thing is that you can believe whatever you want. And so can anyone else. That's a given, and it's also irrelevant. So long as the fetus is dependent upon the mother's body for it's continued existence, she gets to determine it's disposition according to what she believes. Not you, not me, not the church, and not the government.
 
Last edited:

Mark Dohle

Well-Known Member
So have you, or your sex partner, ever used any form of contraception to prevent a life from being formed? And murder is a legal term, not a word to justify your intrusion into someone else's life. Abortions are legal so the word murder does not apply, no matter what you feel. And who decided when life starts? According to scriptures it's when you take your first breath.
Nowhere in scripture does it say abortion is ok, and they did have an abortion back then. Today, in some states, abortion is allowed until the time of birth, which is infanticide, which is in fact murder. However it is legal, so was killing the Jews in Germany in WW11, as well the handicapped. Legal, according to German law, but murder none the less.

Abortion is a business, it makes lots of money, and female infants, or fetuses it that makes you feel more comfortable, or aborted more than men.

I am not trying to change your mind, or anyone else, we just don't agree. I do understand that if I say I was an atheist, or agnostic, I am sure my thoughts would be different on this matter. However, there are atheists/agnostics who are pro-life, more than assumed, who are pro-life.

Here is one site: Atheist and Agnostic Pro-Life League Homepage

one on Infanticide/abortion 19 States Allow Infanticide, Let Abortionists Leave Babies to Die Who Survive an Abortion
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Nowhere in scripture does it say abortion is ok, and they did have an abortion back then. Today, in some states, abortion is allowed until the time of birth, which is infanticide, which is in fact murder. However it is legal, so was killing the Jews in Germany in WW11, as well the handicapped. Legal, according to German law, but murder none the less.

Abortion is a business, it makes lots of money, and female infants, or fetuses it that makes you feel more comfortable, or aborted more than men.

I am not trying to change your mind, or anyone else, we just don't agree. I do understand that if I say I was an atheist, or agnostic, I am sure my thoughts would be different on this matter. However, there are atheists/agnostics who are pro-life, more than assumed, who are pro-life.

Here is one site: Atheist and Agnostic Pro-Life League Homepage

one on Infanticide/abortion 19 States Allow Infanticide, Let Abortionists Leave Babies to Die Who Survive an Abortion

You've obvious;y missed the point and there's no room for a logical discussion on the matter. Have a nice day..
 

Mark Dohle

Well-Known Member
You've obvious;y missed the point and there's no room for a logical discussion on the matter. Have a nice day..
I am just as logical as you are, and capable of discourse, we come from a different perspective that is all. We are a country where there are many different ways of looking at things.....the problem is that there are so many groups, interest groups, that it is getting quigte thin.

Peace
Mark
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
I am just as logical as you are, and capable of discourse, we come from a different perspective that is all. We are a country where there are many different ways of looking at things.....the problem is that there are so many groups, interest groups, that it is getting quigte thin.

Peace
Mark

But you didn't even listen to my reply; you simply twisted it to fit your agenda.
 

Mark Dohle

Well-Known Member
But you didn't even listen to my reply; you simply twisted it to fit your agenda.
That is done unconsciously, we all do it I believe. I felt that you did not really read me either in my post. However I am sure you did ;-) read me, but you have your past, beliefs, and ideas about the rights of abortion when it comes to women.......I think of the life in the womb has rights, you do not agree, the majority would agree with you my friend.. There is no need to continue, we have our own persepctive, and you stated yours well, so thanks for the time.


Peace
Mark
 
Top