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Featured Immortality, a gift from God.

Discussion in 'Theological Concepts' started by Repox, Jun 19, 2017.

  1. Repox

    Repox Truth Seeker

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    In heaven, angels are in the presence of God and are therefore immortal. On earth, when God and His angels were in paradise, all creatures were immortal. When paradise fell all earthly creatures were no longer in the presence of God, they therefore became mortal creatures. Christianity proposes salvation, whereby humans saved from death become immortal. Creatures cannot make themselves immortal; it depends on the will of God. The condition for immortality appears to be contingent on being in the presence of God.

    How about Satan? It is a perplexing problem. Assuming Satan was once in heaven as an obedient servant of God, what happened when he was expelled from heaven? Apparently, Satan has retained his immortality. However, Satan, imprisoned in a material universe where all creatures after the fall of paradise are mortal, may be in danger of losing immortality. It may depend on the future of the universe. According to Laws of Atrophy, eventually, our material universe will self-destruct. What will be the fate of Satan? I propose Satan will also disappear with the universe. God’s problem with his rebellious angel will be solved. How about the fate of humankind?

    Humans were born as mortal creatures. they live, die, and turn to dust. If it were not for symbolic communication abilities, humans would be like other species, a part of the natural order.

    Social justice issues related to humans’ mortal fate may be philosophical, theological, or sociological insofar as they relate to the human condition. Regardless of the framework for discussion, immortality is a crucial topic for the fate of humans.
     
    #1 Repox, Jun 19, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
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  2. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Misanthropic Humanist

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    Humans can barely stay sane and usefully occupied for a century. Granting humans immortality is like giving a fruit fly a diamond necklace.
     
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  3. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Well-Known Member

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    If angels are immortal than how would anyone explain fallen Satan and his demon followers who are Not immortal because they will be destroyed forever. "Death" is the price tag 'sin' pays Not immortal life.
    Sinner Satan ( and his followers ) will be destroyed by Jesus according to Hebrews 2:14 B.
    For that matter, according to Psalms 92:7 everyone wicked will be destroyed forever, Not live.
    So, if an angel chooses to follow Satan he is Not giving up immortal life but giving up his everlasting life.
    Mortal Adam was Never offered immortality, rather Adam could live forever on Earth as long as he kept God's Law.

    If it were Not God's purpose for the Earth to exist forever according to Ecclesiastes 1:4 B, then yes the Laws of Atrophy could apply, but resilient Earth keeps bouncing back (recovering) from abuse when left alone.
    God will bring to ruin those ruining Earth according to Revelation 11:18 B.

    So, 'immortality' is Not a crucial topic or subject, but rather ' everlasting life on a beautiful paradisical Earth ' is.
    I recall Jesus' promised that humble meek people will inherit the Earth according to Matthew 5:5.
    So, starting at the soon coming ' time of separation ' on Earth as mentioned at Matthew 25:31-33 the figurative humble ' sheep'-like people can remain alive on Earth, and continue to live on Earth, right into the start of calendar Day One of Jesus' coming millennium-long day of governing over Earth when even enemy death will be No more on Earth according to 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8. So, mortal mankind (Matthew 25:37) can gain ' everlasting life on Earth ' as originally offered to Adam before his downfall.
     
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  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Well-Known Member

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    Since, in Scripture, I find there is No granting humans immortality (be death proof), then there is No concern.
    Mortal Adam was offered Not immortality but ' everlasting life ' on Earth as long as Adam kept God's Law.
    Because there will be healing for earth's nations according to Revelation 22:2, then people will have sound hearts, minds and bodies capable of living forever on Earth as long as wanted. Being physically healthy then people will be sane and can pursue forever learning. I never tire of my favorite foods, I never tire of being with favorite people.
     
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  5. Repox

    Repox Truth Seeker

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    Isn't everlasting a synonym for immortal?
     
  6. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Well-Known Member

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    I think most people would think everlasting is a synonym for immortal.
    Immortal to me means: can't die; death proof. In other words, immortal is in-capable of dying or being destroyed.
    Mortal Adam was never offered a choice between being immortal (death proof) and everlasting life when obedient.
    So, in Scripture I find there was only one offer given to mortal Adam:
    Live forever "IF" you do Not break the Law about the forbidden tree.
    Since we are innocent of what father Adam brought upon us (death thru sin ) is why Jesus came to balance the Scales of Justice for us so that we too can gain (Not immortality) but can gain the opportunity to live forever on a beautiful paradisical Earth as long as we want to obey and live by the Golden Rule, and live by Jesus' New commandment as found at John 13:34-35 to have self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has for us.
    In other words, God does Not force anyone to live forever, we can opt out of life (like Adam did) if we wish.
     
  7. Repox

    Repox Truth Seeker

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    I think there is a distinction between angels and humans with respect to immortality. In my opinion, angels were created to live with God as immortal beings. God applied conditions to Adam related to obedience to God's commandments. Adam lost the possibility of immortality when he gave in to the temptation offered by Satan. It was only in paradise where creatures were immortal. Angels were created to be immortal, humans were not, they live in a unholy world. In heaven, there are no mortal creatures. On earth, there are no immortal creatures.

    My believe is all creatures in paradise were immortal, and the whole earth was paradise. It wasn't just Adam, or one man and one woman, it was all creatures. In paradise, it is difficult to imagine just two creatures as immortal.
     
    #7 Repox, Jun 19, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  8. Repox

    Repox Truth Seeker

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    Everything in the world is temporary, or subject to physical laws. Paradise during the dinosaur era was the only period in the universe where time stood still, the entire planet was aglow with God's holy light. Humans are collateral damage from the fall of paradise.

    God's creatures on earth have suffered from the consequences of Satan's rebellion. Many would say, why doesn't God just eliminate Satan. It is a human question for which there is no answer. It is difficult if not impossible to understand the supernatural world. What I know is God and heaven are in another dimension of reality, one in which there are no quarks, atoms, dark energy, etc. Evidently, God created the universe to match Satan's dark evil nature. Humans are collateral damage from the fall of paradise. I know, that is just not right. There are so many human principles to apply, but God doesn't really care. What I have tried to do is understand things from God's perspective. In some ways it is depressing, but there is no other alternative, unless you want to be a God hater. I don't think God pays much attention to human complaints.

    I think it is a big deal to know is God is a duality. Before God created the first angel, He was his own companion. If you want evidence for God's duality, do a scientific study. You'll find a lot of duality in nature. Pairs are everywhere! It is God's DNA on creation.

    What I know is there is no immortality without being in the presence of God. There would be no purpose to being immortal without God. What visions, things, or ideas would one relate to without God? They would all be idols. In God's presence one would be immortal because it would be compatible with God's essence and being. In other words, God would not tolerate a being who ages or disintegrates in its presence. God created angels to enjoy eternity in a heavenly party. Therefore, angels in heaven are compatible with God's eternal nature.
     
  9. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Pyrphóros ⚡ Lux Aeterna
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    Out of the womb and into the void
    o_O
     
  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Well-Known Member

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    I agree that it is difficult to imagine just two creatures as immortal because immortality was never offered in Eden.
    I think if Adam and Eve were immortal they would still be alive on Earth today. The immortal cannot become mortal.
    Mortal Adam lost the possibility of everlasting life. The immortal can Not ever loose their immortality.
    If angelic Satan was immortal then Satan could Not be destroyed as Hebrews 2:14 mentions Jesus will destroy Satan.
    Angelic Satan was a mortal living in heaven. An obedient Satan could live forever, live forever in heaven.
    If animals and insects were immortal they would all still be alive on Earth today including dinosaurs.
    Animals according to Scripture were never offered either immortality or everlasting life.
    What makes the world unholy is bad people behaving in an unholy or immoral way.
    What will make the world holy ( righteous ) is that Jesus will get rid of the wicked by the executional words from Jesus' mouth according to Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16 thus only the righteous will be left to gain everlasting life on a paradisical Earth as Eden originally was - Psalms 92:7.
     
  11. Repox

    Repox Truth Seeker

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    In my opinion, any immortal creature of God could become mortal by disobeying God. If it were not so, then obedience to God would have no value. All angels in heaven have everlasting life with God. Satan was an angel in heaven, all angels were created to be with God. Why would God create an angel to eventually die? It doesn't make sense. God created angels to be immortal. As for paradise, God would not come to earth to observe competitive wars of nature. When God was in the world, all creatures in paradise became immortal. When God departed after the fall of paradise creatures lost their immortality. There is, of course, no way to prove it, and the Bible story about Adam and Eve is very short on details.

    The essential issue is where does the creature begin. Assuming the creature was created to be immortal, such as angels, then we would assume it would remain as such. Earthly creatures after the fall of paradise became mortal, and therefore died. It is difficult to imagine paradise on earth with mortal creatures. It would not be paradise, it would a jungle world.
     
  12. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Well-Known Member

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    Adam to me was Not in a jungle world, but perhaps I could phrase it as living in peaceful zoo surroundings.
    To me the word immortal means: death proof / can Not die. So, mortal Adam could die if disobedient to God's Law.
    To me the immortal are self contained ( No need of anything to sustain them. Can't destroy the immortal )
    Mortal Adam was Not self contained because in order to live Adam had to always breathe and eat and drink.
    Thus, Adam's life was dependant on outside-of-himself sources. Immortals have life within themselves.
    ALL sinners must pay the price of sin which according to Romans 6:23 is: death.
    Sinner Satan is Not death proof because Jesus destroys sinner Satan according to Hebrews 2:14 B.
    ALL wicked ( earthly or angelic ) will be destroyed forever according to Psalms 92:7.
    Sinner Satan ends up in that symbolic ' second death ' of Revelation 21:8.
    When Jesus' coming 1,000-year reign over Earth comes, then Earth will become a beautiful paradisical garden as sample Eden was. Mankind will see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' on Earth according to Revelation 22:2.
    That means there will be healing for earth's nations because the humble meek will inherit the Earth once the wicked are gone.
    That means: No more wars on Earth according to Micah 4:3-4 and Psalms 46:9.
    Plus, No more death on Earth because the humble meek are like the righteous people of Matthew 25:31-33,37.
    Enemy death will be brought to nothing according to 1 Corinthians 15:26. Death will No longer exist because the righteous will be blessed with 'everlasting life' as originally offered to Adam before his downfall.
     
  13. Repox

    Repox Truth Seeker

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    I think the Adam and Eve stories are myths. I believe there was paradise on earth, it was during the dinosaur era. I can't prove it, but no one can prove the Genesis story either.
    I don't think it is possible to be immortal without being in the presence of God. It doesn't make sense for there to be immortality without God. What would the creature do? Roam around hunting for dear, etc? It would be as if God created gods for their own pleasure. What would prevent immortal creatures from becoming like Satan. If they did, wouldn't it threaten God? If creatures are not in heaven with God, they are mortal and therefore subject to death. It is the fate of humans to die, everything else is a fairy tale. Even the salvation story is a fairy tale written by men to perpetuate a myth about the holiness of humans.
     
  14. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Well-Known Member

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    You are Not alone in your ^ above ^ thinking.
    I think angels are in heaven with God, but only the 'faithful angels'. Fallen angels like Satan are Not in heaven.
    Yes, angels 'Not in heaven' are subject to death in that they will be: destroyed forever ( aka second death ).
    I find in Scripture God is called Heavenly Father. The word ' father ' means: life giver. Not life taker.
    So, to me, God's will (His purpose) is that we live. Sin brings about our death.
    Since we can Not resurrect oneself or another, we need someone who can do that for us.
    That is why our "Life Giver" (God) gives us the gift of life through Jesus when Jesus will resurrect us.
    So, for now we do die, but enemy death will be brought to nothing according to 1 Corinthians 15:26.
    That is also why the ' future tense ' is used at Acts of the Apostles 24:15 that there ' is going to be' a resurrection......
    I don't consider the resurrection as a myth fairy tale for us 'less-than-holy' humans.
     
  15. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    This is true of humans without the Holy Spirit.
     
  16. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Gee, spending eternity in hell. What a nice gift.

    .
     
  17. Repox

    Repox Truth Seeker

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    I have a difficult time believing Paul. He contradicts. I recall he said Jesus was one brother among many brothers. (Romans 8:29) Then, he goes on to make Jesus to be the only way to salvation. Actually, I have problems with all of the NT. I think Jesus was God and not the son of God. It puts me outside of Christianity.
     
  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Well-Known Member

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    You are Not alone in thinking Jesus was or is God.
    Outside of Christianity there are many triune or triads of gods tracing all the way back to Nimrod in Genesis Ten.
    Especially when un-faithful Jews began mixing with the Greeks they then adopted their religious thinking mixing it with Scripture thus creating a religious syncretism. That is why we see so many similar or overlapping religious concepts and practices throughout the world today.

    I think Paul is explaining to us at Hebrews 2:7-11 that Jesus changed places with us.
    That is why Jesus is Not ashamed to call them as being ' brothers ' at verse 11 B.
    Not literal but ' spiritual brothers ' by ' adoption ' (verses 15,23) as Paul explains at Romans 8:14-17, 23.
    Those whom Jesus changed places with can't bring about salvation ( deliverance / rescue ).
    In other words, we can't resurrect oneself or another so we need someone who can resurrect us.
    Although it was God who resurrected Jesus out of the grave (Acts of the Apostles 2:24; 3:15; 5:30; 13:30,37)
    then, God gave the 'resurrection power' to Jesus. Jesus has the keys to unlock death at Revelation 1:18.
     
  19. Repox

    Repox Truth Seeker

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    It is interesting how the sacrifice ritual became the basis for Christianity. If you read historical documents, you will find definitions of Jesus changing until leaders got it right. Thus was born Christianity. See The Lost Gospel of Q by Burton L. Mack.
     
  20. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Well-Known Member

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    Basically, ' life for life ' was the principle of justice.
    Adam lost his perfectly healthy life, so Jesus' ransom undid the loss of human perfection for us - Matthew 20:28.
    In Scripture I find there is No lost gospel. So, it is only the '66' Bible books that are considered as inspired.
    Christians do Not add or subtract from those '66' as Revelation 22:18-19 says.
     
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