Im worried

[michel]

Lilthu,

who are we to judge why a person believes in God or not? Whether he believes as a form of fire insurance or not is entirely up to him. None of us have "perfect motives" for believing what we do, and that's "OK". God knows our limitations and all of us have them.

None of us have "perfect motives" for believing what we do, and that's "OK"

Sorry, NetDoc, do you not that no one has perfect motives (for believing in God ) ?

 

[lilithu]

Lilthu,

who are we to judge why a person believes in God or not? Whether he believes as a form of fire insurance or not is entirely up to him. None of us have "perfect motives" for believing what we do, and that's "OK". God knows our limitations and all of us have them.

I've quoted Rabi'a many times in RF already but I will do it again. No one has said it better than she did:

O my Lord, if I worship Thee from fear of Hell, burn me in Hell,
and if I worship Thee in hope of Paradise, exclude me thence, but if
I worship Thee for Thine own sake withhold not from me Thine
eternal beauty.


If I don't think God will condemn someone for not believing, then I certainly don't think that God will condemn someone for believing for inferior reasons.

The punishment in that case, so to speak, is self-inflicted. One lives one's life not being true to oneself, and that is wasting a large part of one's life. I wouldn't condemn someone for taking Pascal's wager. I would just feel badly for them.

 

[michel]

I've quoted Rabi'a many times in RF already but I will do it again. No one has said it better than she did:

O my Lord, if I worship Thee from fear of Hell, burn me in Hell,
and if I worship Thee in hope of Paradise, exclude me thence, but if
I worship Thee for Thine own sake withhold not from me Thine
eternal beauty.


If I don't think God will condemn someone for not believing, then I certainly don't think that God will condemn someone for believing for inferior reasons.

The punishment in that case, so to speak, is self-inflicted. One lives one's life not being true to oneself, and that is wasting a large part of one's life. I wouldn't condemn someone for taking Pascal's wager. I would just feel badly for them.

Nicely said.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Michel,

It is my firm conviction that we all possess pride: a sin. This pride causes us to say and do things to find favor with our friends and companions. No one is perfect, except for Jesus.

 

[Majikthise]

Michel,

It is my firm conviction that we all possess pride: a sin. This pride causes us to say and do things to find favor with our friends and companions. No one is perfect, except for Jesus.

As the OP is considering a return to Judaism, I don't think the perfection of Jesus will effect the outcome. Even if this person does choose a return to theism it will be a wrong choice in your eyes.


Magurk,
I was a christian for more than half of my life, and as an atheist now, the question "what if I am wrong ", still pushes it's way into my thoughts once in a while. Even after all this time ,years of indoctrination try to erode my intellectual freedom. I know what's right for me and no one can effect my decision but me. I think you will figure out what is right for you without any problem. Good luck man.

 

[lilithu]

I was a christian for more than half of my life, and as an atheist now, the question "what if I am wrong ", still pushes it's way into my thoughts once in a while.

If you are true to your own conscience, you are not wrong.

 

[Scuba Pete]

As the OP is considering a return to Judaism, I don't think the perfection of Jesus will effect the outcome. Even if this person does choose a return to theism it will be a wrong choice in your eyes.

I don't think you have a prophet's license for a reason. Please make your assumptions on someone else. I have no problem with WHATEVER path others may choose for themselves. But it's easy for some to pigeon hole those who don't agree with them as you have apparently done to me. Rather than put words in my mouth, why don't you listen to what I am saying. ALL of us have pride.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Last night I had an episode of relapsing Christianity. I saw a big cross, and for some reason, I thought I was Christian. It was really wierd. I realized I wasn't Christian, and I wanted to be one again. Later on that night, my mind somehow figured I would have extra money at the end of this week, and to spend it, I would get my ear pierced, which seemed like a good idea. Thats the last time I eat chicken that has a funny taste. Or maybe a latent split personality.
I was Christian for the first 16 years of my life. For about the first year after I "quit" Christianity, I was always wondering wondering what the truth is. After much praying, the first thing that came to me was a book about Druidism. And then I had urges to learn about Nocturnalism, and I couldn't refuse that urge, despite the warnings I was told by my brother, whom I trust very much. Its been several months since I was wondering "what if I'm wrong." I came to realize, there is no way of knowing for sure if any of use are right or wrong, so it is not worth worrying about.

 

[s2a]

I don't think you have a prophet's license for a reason. Please make your assumptions on someone else. I have no problem with WHATEVER path others may choose for themselves. But it's easy for some to pigeon hole those who don't agree with them as you have apparently done to me. Rather than put words in my mouth, why don't you listen to what I am saying. ALL of us have pride.

Indeed.

But not all will agree that "pride" is a sin, or that "sin" is anything more than imposed dogmatic conscience.

While true that tolerant and accepting Christians may have "no problem" (socially) with those that choose "another path" to God, I doubt there would be many that would concede that any path (spiritually) can be the "right", or "true" path to redemption and salvation.

John 14:6 - "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Believe it...or not.

I know I don't. ;-)

If self-professed "followers of Christ" did not accept their prophet's words as "right and true", then there would be little call for missionary evangelism or proselytizing of Jesus' message to the great unwashed. Might as well let those cargo-cultists go on worshiping that sporadically-sighted, silver-winged, roaring god in the sky. After all, what's wrong with that, if they choose their own "path"?

Oh, I nearly forgot.

A "chosen path" of indifference won't work after all...

Matthew 28:18-20 -
"Then Jesus came to them and said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.'"

Whups.

I guess it does matter to an authoritatively commanding Jesus as to who's determinedly "right", and who is not...and what His followers are instructed to do about that.

[It's neither inattentiveness nor purposed mischaracterization to accurately infer/observe/conclude that self-professed "followers of Christ" should consider their own beliefs as "right ("correct", "true")"; and determinedly conclude adherents of any/all other beliefs as, "wrong". Hey. It's right there, straight from their professed prophet's mouth (who is revered a tad more than a mere "gift horse").]

 

[Majikthise]

I don't think you have a prophet's license for a reason. Please make your assumptions on someone else. I have no problem with WHATEVER path others may choose for themselves. But it's easy for some to pigeon hole those who don't agree with them as you have apparently done to me. Rather than put words in my mouth, why don't you listen to what I am saying. ALL of us have pride.

Pride isn't a sin unless you believe in sin. Pride isn't good or evil unless you attach such a label to it yourself. I'm proud of my daughter when she comes home with a report card covered in As and Bs. I'm proud to have served my country through military service. I feel pride of accomplishment when I take a rusty old motor that sat in the ocean for two days and get it running( Sorry ,but I got the thing going without the help of any god)). If thats the kind of thing a god is going to judge you on then I see no reason to worship such a petty being. Pride cometh before I get a commision for an expediant repair.

 

[lilithu]

Pride isn't a sin unless you believe in sin. Pride isn't good or evil unless you attach such a label to it yourself. I'm proud of my daughter when she comes home with a report card covered in As and Bs. I'm proud to have served my country through military service. I feel pride of accomplishment when I take a rusty old motor that sat in the ocean for two days and get it running( Sorry ,but I got the thing going without the help of any god)). If thats the kind of thing a god is going to judge you on then I see no reason to worship such a petty being.

If one looks at the classic seven deadly sins - Pride, Envy, Gluttony, Lust, Anger, Greed, and Sloth - these are all sins when they're excessive. It's not a sin to eat; it's a sin to eat too much. It's not a sin to rest; it's a sin to be lazy. It's not a sin to be proud of your daughter, country, personal accomplisments, etc. It's a sin, as NetDoc says, to think so much of oneself that one doesn't do what's right for the sake of appearances or approval. I don't know whether these sins are good or evil - generally, I don't think something is evil unless it hurts someone else - but they certainly aren't prudent.

 

[AtheistAJ]

If one looks at the classic seven deadly sins - Pride, Envy, Gluttony, Lust, Anger, Greed, and Sloth - these are all sins when they're excessive. It's not a sin to eat; it's a sin to eat too much. It's not a sin to rest; it's a sin to be lazy. It's not a sin to be proud of your daughter, country, personal accomplisments, etc. It's a sin, as NetDoc says, to think so much of oneself that one doesn't do what's right for the sake of appearances or approval. I don't know whether these sins are good or evil - generally, I don't think something is evil unless it hurts someone else - but they certainly aren't prudent.

I agree with most of those philosophical views, but I think in a utopian world it be wrong to feel "proud" of personal accomplishments, family, and especially country. Furthermore, like John Lennon wanted, there should be no countries in a perfect world. Those are Christian sins right?

 

[lilithu]

I agree with most of those philosophical views, but I think in a utopian world it be wrong to feel "proud" of personal accomplishments, family, and especially country. Furthermore, like John Lennon wanted, there should be no countries in a perfect world. Those are Christian sins right?

Yes, I think that they are "Christian sins"; but that doesn't mean there isn't a more universal wisdom in them. As for your utopian world, one person's utopia is another person's hell.

I am going to reframe this from pride to love, because that's what were really talking about - the validity of loving self, family, and country preferentially over others. It is fine and noble to love all humanity, to say that everyone is equal at some level. *I* love all humanity and say that everyone is equal at some level. UU is based on these ideals. But we must always love our greater, more universal ideals through the smaller, more particular intances of these ideals. No one has the power to love ths world without first loving onself. To recognize the worth of one's personal accomplishments is to recognize that one has the power to change the world for the better. No one truly loves all of humanity without first loving individual people and groups of people. Or else all one loves is a concept and not the real thing. Humanity exists in the particulars. I understand and share your concerns about people getting so biased towards the particulars that they know that they hate those they don't know. But the solution is NOT to reject particularity, because if you do you will never start anywhere. The solution is to love those you know AND recognize that other people are just as valid in doing the same thing.

I argued in my previous post that the 7 deadly sins are only sins because they are done in excess. You asked me if these were Christian sins, making me think, frankly, that you might reject their wisdom simply because of the label attached (which is a kind of bias I might point out). Perhaps it would be more productive to forget about "Christian sins" and talk about Aristotle's virtues and vices. In Aristotle's conception, moderation is a virtue, extremism is a vice. Pride - love of you and yours - is a vice when it is so extreme that it prevents you from seeing the value of what is not you and yours. Humility - the rejection of pride - is also a vice when it is so extreme that it prevents you from engaging in the world.

 

[lilithu]

There are three general approaches that Christians take in dealing with the fact that we are not all Christian and never will be: 1) exclusivism - everyone who doesn't accept Christ is damned, 2) inclusivism - everyone who deserves salvation is saved thru Christ, even those who don't accept Christ, and 3) pluralism - everyone who deserves salvation is saved thru the merit of their own belief systems. There are biblical verses that can back up each one of these positions. (I will concede that there are fewer verses to back up the third position than the other two.) The bible does not speak with one obviously uniform voice. If it did, one would not find the wide range of Christian views on all sorts of things that one does find.

s2a, you've quoted from the bible exclusively to support the exclusivist position, even tho you obviously don't hold that view. And you did it in response to NetDoc's post where he rejects the exclusivist position. The only two logical inferences that I can draw (and I'm sure you'll tell me if I missed one) is that you either think that NetDoc is being insincere in his views or that he is mistaken/not a true Christian. It seems, from my perspective anyway, that you've chosen to believe that "true" Christianity is only exclusivist and incompatible with tolerance and even acceptance of other faiths. There are certainly some Christians who would agree with you, but I wonder why you agree with them.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Pride isn't a sin unless you believe in sin.

Hitler said something similar about genocide.

There are at least two types of pride: that feeling of a good job done! There is nothing wrong with that, in fact God created that feeling for us: it's part of our conscience.

The bad pride is thinking morely highly of yourself than is warranted. This is the type of pride that puts yourself ahead of others in line, that sees your self as more important than others. This pride seems to be in line with our survival instinct which has to be subjugated to God (or the greater good).

 

[michel]

The bad pride is thinking morely highly of yourself than is warranted.

Do you mean unwarranted ?

 

[Majikthise]

Hitler said something similar about genocide.

There are at least two types of pride: that feeling of a good job done! There is nothing wrong with that, in fact God created that feeling for us: it's part of our conscience.

The bad pride is thinking morely highly of yourself than is warranted. This is the type of pride that puts yourself ahead of others in line, that sees your self as more important than others. This pride seems to be in line with our survival instinct which has to be subjugated to God (or the greater good).

So now my words are akin to those of Mr. H,... nice.
The term sin is directly connected to the transgression of divine law within what would appear to be specific religions. I believe many religions , not just atheism (not to infer that atheism is a religion), do not entertain the Abrahamic concept of sin. Taking things beyond what is socially and moraly acceptable is ,argueably, never a good thing and will end up hurting you as well as those around you. Subjugation to a god should not have to be a requirement for one to realise this but ,sadly(IMO) this is exactly the case for many people. Some things that are labeled as being sins besides the "deadly" ones , homosexuality, contraception, any form of abortion, sex outside of marriage, eating meat on fridays, blasphemy, not feeling moved by "The Passion"(just kidding).......
are only sins in the eyes of those who subscribe to such dogma.

As you stated , we are all guilty of the SIN of pride. If this pride is worthy of the title of sin, then you must be talking about bad pride. If that's the case then we're all bound for the lake. Better get to Temple ,Magurk, or else get a pair of fire proof shoes.

 

[Scuba Pete]

As you stated , we are all guilty of the SIN of pride. If this pride is worthy of the title of sin, then you must be talking about bad pride. If that's the case then we're all bound for the lake. Better get to Temple ,Magurk, or else get a pair of fire proof shoes.

I would venture to say that I am guilty of the bad pride more than most! I constantly repent of putting myself ahead of others. The problem with living sacrifices, is that they keep sneeking off of the alter.

As for the comment about rationalization... we all believe in "sin", but some of us are uncomfortable assigning a religious conotation to it. Sin is noting more than missing the mark: being less than perfect.

 

[Majikthise]

As for the comment about rationalization... we all believe in "sin", but some of us are uncomfortable assigning a religious conotation to it. Sin is noting more than missing the mark: being less than perfect.

My hat's off to you sir. :clap You're economical use of truth has given me pause for thought.
Thank you.

 

[lilithu]

My hat's off to you sir. :clap You're economical use of truth has given me pause for thought.
Thank you.

Wow. My hat's off to both of you. :jiggy: